The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:29 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I need to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining via video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on the agenda.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Public Transport

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve public transport in Aberconwy? OQ57229

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. The provision of new rail rolling stock and the instigation of new, innovative demand-response Fflecsi bus services are amongst the actions being taken to improve public transport in the Member’s constituency.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch. First Minister, in a climate crisis, we need to be empowering our residents to use public transport. Now, whilst we have seen some progress in reaching rural communities through the Conwy valley Fflecsi bus service as you mentioned, the reality is though that some communities in the Conwy valley are cut off from the coast at night. The last train leaves at 16:07 and the last bus at 18:34,and there are constituents now having to face the dilemma of paying high, costly taxi fees. There's also an even greater chance now that tourists are driving themselves to Snowdonia National Park, and we're all working on initiatives there to try and cut down on the use of private cars, rather using public transport. So, our railway line is one of the best short-term solutions.
Would you, First Minister, work with Transport for Wales to see if evening services could be scheduled between Llandudno and Blaenau Ffestiniog, and, also, would you look to amend the north Wales metro programme so to include a direct rail service between Blaenau Ffestiniog and Manchester Airport, that would really go some way to solving some of the public transport issues we have in Aberconwy? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd, and for the constructive suggestions that she's put forward. I know that my colleague Lesley Griffiths, as Minister for north Wales, is meeting with Transport for Wales tomorrow on transport issues in the north, and will be able to take up some of the points that the Member has made.The Welsh Government continues, Llywydd, to invest in the north Wales metro—£9.2 million originally secured for this financial year, and a further £9.3 million-worth of funding to local authorities and TfW announced since then. I know that the Member was recently able to attend an event at the Llandudno hub, and that will help to host the Conwy valley community rail partnership, another important development in her constituency.
And, Llywydd, on Friday of last week, I was able to meet the Taoiseach at City Hall here in Cardiff, where we were able to look together at a series of electric recycling collection vehicles, 13 of them destined for Conwy council, not public transport, I know, but public vehicles reducing emissions, as Janet Finch-Saunders suggested. And Transport for Wales has commissioned a 100 per cent zero emissions, electric battery, accessible minibus service, and that will be used for those councils who are part of the Fflecsi scheme, building on some of the ideas that the Member outlined earlier.

Carolyn Thomas AS: As you know, First Minister, Dolgarrog pipe bridge, connecting the local community to the train station, has been closed to walkers and local users due to significant safety concerns, including the deterioration of the timber deck boards and the need for additional measures to safeguard the water mains supply to over 3,000 homes in north Wales. Thanks to Welsh Government funding, the popular walking route at Dolgarrog in Aberconwy is to reopen with upgraded facilities, which will improve access to the local train station. Please could the First Minister provide an update on this much welcomed improvement being made to the area? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that. The Welsh Government will provide funding of nearly £0.75 million to fund Conwy County Borough Council's contribution to refurbishing the bridge and to provide for a significant upgrade in its facilities. As we have heard, it is a very popular local amenity and has had to be closed in recent times. Not only will it assist those people who just want to be walking and enjoying the fantastic amenities of that part of Wales, but it will also allow for easier access between the village and its railway station, as well, then, as wider local tourist attractions in the area. So, I'm very pleased indeed to see a solution to the problems that have been experienced there, and very glad that the Welsh Government is able to make our contribution to doing so.

Alternative Protein Technology

Joel James MS: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on the role of alternative protein technology in achieving net zero? OQ57224

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, Wales needs a sustainable agricultural sector and food chains that work towards achieving net zero. Developing new technologies and creating alternative protein sources will contribute towards further reductions in our greenhouse gas emissions.

Joel James MS: Thank you, First Minister. As you know, the land used globally to grow crops for Welsh consumption is equivalent to 40 per cent of the size of Wales, and one of the largest crops grown overseas for Welsh consumption is soy bean, which is used primarily by the Welsh poultry industry. As such, for Wales to change its farming practices so it doesn't contribute to deforestation overseas, we would need to be less reliant on soy animal feed from abroad. One of the ways in which this could be achieved is through the use of alternative protein, such as fly larvae, which extensive trials have shown to be more than a viable alternative to using soy to feed our poultry. Alternative protein, such as this, provides both climate solutions and opportunities for economic growth here in Wales and the UK, and research from the Farm Animal Investment Risk and Return investor network has found that alternative protein sources could make up to 64 per cent of the global protein market by 2050. First Minister, in your workings together to reach the Net Zero Wales plan 2021-25, there is no reference whatsoever to alternative proteins, which strongly indicates that you have either dismissed it outright, or have not even considered alternative proteins as a way of tackling the issues of imported animal feeds from deforested areas. Can you explain the reasons why this Government has chosen not to include alternative proteins as part of your reach net zero plan? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Member was doing very well until the final part of his question, because he was making a series of very important points and pointing to opportunities that there are for us here in Wales. The need to develop alternative protein sources is necessary here in Wales, but is absolutely necessary around the globe. And here in Wales, we have active interests in plant-based alternatives, microbial alternatives, insect-based alternatives, lab-grown meat, cellular agriculture. All of those issues, Llywydd, were being discussed at Aberystwyth—the AberInnovation campus—when you and I were both there for its formal opening on 21 October. The biofermentation technology being developed at the centre is part of the future food centre, which is there in that part of Wales—there because of the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences and all the work that it has done over many years to promote alternatives in this sector.
The possibilities for Wales are particularly important, because our own agriculture has huge natural advantages, our climate provides for an abundant growth in grass and, therefore, for non-intensive, sustainable livestock farming. We can continue with that and have the confidence of knowing that those alternative protein technologies can be developed here in Wales alongside and in support of our existing agriculture. That's why it is such an exciting proposition for us in Wales. I agree with everything the Member said, up until his rather mean-spirited final contribution. The truth is, I'm sure, that there's a genuinely shared interest, across the Chamber, in making sure that we grasp these opportunities and put them to work for Wales.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Prif Weinidog, last night, I watched with my one-year-old daughter an episode ofPeppa Pig, the cartoon that inspired the Prime Minister after a visit to a theme park. I'm not so much of a fan as the Prime Minister, but Peppa did have some wise words in last night's episode. [Laughter.] She said, 'There are two types of balloons in the world: balloons that go up and balloons that go down', and, if it's true about balloons, it's also true about political parties isn't it, Prime Minister. And I'd like to—

Rhys ab Owen AS: —congratulate you and Adam Price—

Rhys ab Owen AS: —on reaching the higher ground, the higher common ground, and I hope other parties will follow that, but I am sure others will try and pull it down later on in this session.
The commitment to try and achieve net zero by 2035 is such an important part of the co-operation agreement between our parties, and technology will play a key role in doing that. You said in your written statement today that to reach net zero will require new thinking, research and innovation. In the nineteenth century, we led the way with the industrial revolution, and, rather than berate hard-working civil servants for not conceiving a cartoon pig, how can we all work together to achieve net zero by 2035 and make sure, by using that technology, that this time round it's not only in the hands of a few rich millionaires but is shared between the people of Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much to Rhys for that question and for being in the vanguard in this field.

Mark Drakeford AC: I shared a platform with the Prime Minister at COP26. He devoted his address in a way which, I could not help but feel, left 40 international leaders in front of us slightly baffled on the importance of better mannered cows in addressing climate change. So, he clearly has a long-standing interest in the contribution of farmyard animals to political debate. [Laughter.] The importance, however, of the point that the Member makes is this: technologies are changing, as in the area identified in the original question. New possibilities will emerge. We want Wales always to be at the forefront and at the cutting edge of efforts made to achieve net-zero carbon. If we are able to bring forward the date from 2050, which is where the CCC tells us currently, with what we know today, is the possibility for Wales, of course we want to do that. And the work that will now go on against the new date will tell us where those new opportunities lie and whether it is possible to go even further and faster than we have been able up until now.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from party leaders and, on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, I know that you would like us to focus today's First Minister's question time on your party's deal with the Welsh nationalists, but I don't want to focus on what many people on my side of the Chamber regard as a sideshow. I want to focus on issues that really matter to the people of Wales. So, I want to ask you about mental health. First Minister, last week saw the publication of a report on mental health services in north Wales. It made for very difficult reading. The Holden report, which was suppressed by the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board for almost eight years, exposed a culture of bullying, intimidation, staff shortages, patient neglect, all at the Hergest unit in Ysbyty Gwynedd. Can you tell me, First Minister, what lessons has the Welsh Government learnt from that report?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, as the Member said, Llywydd, the report is eight years old, and many lessons have been learnt since then. I was myself heartened to see that the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales report on the Hergest unit in 2018 found evidence that the unit then provided safe care, and that when HIW undertook a quality check at the unit in May of this year, it once again confirmed that considerable progress had been made in bringing that unit to a more acceptable level of care and provision for citizens in that part of Wales. So, those are the lessons that have been learnt over that eight-year period—that, with a proper focus and commitment from those concerned, even very difficult experiences can be overcome and a path to improvement set out.

Darren Millar AC: I'm surprised by your answer, First Minister. I didn't ask you what lessons the health board had learned, I asked you what lessons you had learned—the Welsh Government had learned. You were the health Minister at the time that these problems were festering in north Wales. Alarm bells were ringing, staff were complaining, patients were being neglected, some were being harmed, and I, along with other elected representatives who were Members of the Senedd at that time, were expressing concerns in correspondence to you. But it took you two years—two very long years—and a further damning report into institutional abuse and neglect in mental health services, this time at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd's Tawel Fan ward, before you finally got around to placing the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board into special measures. But of course it was too little, too late for those patients who in the meantime had come to harm and for their loved ones. Do you, as the health Minister at that particular time, accept any responsibility whatsoever for the harm that was suffered by patients? And what action is now being taken to hold those people who were responsible for the failings identified by Holden to account for what went wrong?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I take full responsibility for everything that I did and decided when I was health Minister, in the many, many questions that I was asked on the floor of this Senedd and answered at the time. I visited the Hergest unit while I was the health Minister, partly in response to the correspondence that I was receiving about it. I found a beleaguered but very committed staff, determined every day to try to make a difference in the lives of those people whose illness required in-patient mental health attention. Those people were determined, despite all the criticism, to come into work every day to do their best, and that's what I think happens every day, ever since, by those people who provide those services in north Wales. The Member, as ever, has never a good word to say for anybody who works for the health service—[Interruption.] Well, I haven't heard a good word said yet. We'll see if he can manage one now. Those people deserve support from people in this Chamber, not asking what we are going to do to conduct some sort of retrospective trawl to see who can be held to blame. My belief is that, with the new management of the health service in north Wales—. And I had an opportunity, Llywydd, yesterday to discuss with the chair of the health board, the new chief executive and the person in charge of mental health services the plans they have to go on building on the improvements that they have been able to bring about. Many further improvements are necessary, all of that recognised by the people responsible on the ground, but looking ahead to build from that, to make sure that the services provided to people in north Wales are of a quality and a standard and of a consistency that they would wish to see.

Darren Millar AC: First Minister, I am very disappointed by your response. I have not denigrated in any way the people on the front lines of our health service who are delivering high-quality care under great pressure day in, day out. What I'm asking you is: will you accept some responsibility for what happened in north Wales to its mental health services, given that you were the health Minister at the time? Where's the accountability, where's the apology to those individuals who suffered as a result of that delay in action? You evaded responsibility then and you're now trying to do the same, not just in relation to mental health services in north Wales, but also of course in relation to your decisions around the pandemic.
So, can I ask you a slightly different question? Will you and your coalition partners in Plaid Cymru learn the lessons from the past? Will you stop the dithering and will you listen to the calls of grieving families that are echoing in my ears, and no doubt echoing in yours, and take now swift action—not delayed action—to commission a Wales-specific COVID inquiry as soon as possible to learn the lessons from this pandemic and to make sure they're not repeated in the future?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, amongst his more offensive remarks, the Member did manage to squeeze a sentence out to recognise the high quality of care provided for his constituents in north Wales. I discussed the whole business of an inquiry with Michael Gove, the Minister responsible for this matter in the UK Government last week. I received further assurances from him of the commitment of the Conservative UK Government to an inquiry that will provide the answers that Welsh families need. He told me that he was well aware of the actions of the Welsh Conservative party in attempting to undermine the agreement that I have reached with the Prime Minister. It continues yet again here today. He may not be prepared to trust what I am told by his party members in Government in Westminster; until I see evidence that they are not prepared to do what they tell me every time I discuss it with them—[Interruption.] Every time I discuss it with them, they tell me they are determined to provide an inquiry that will provide the answers that people who speak to me and to him—. I will believe them until I see evidence that what they're saying to me is not true. He has had no trust in what they say to me from the outset.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I thought Darren Millar was remarkably reticent today about the co-operation agreement. Maybe, I don't know, he's regretting some of his attack lines overnight. But they said—and you said—that the agreement does nothing to help the people of Wales: tell that to the 200,000 children that will now receive free school meals as a result of that; tell that to the extra thousands of children that will receive free childcare. They say it does nothing for the NHS and yet, at its heart is the creation of a national care service that will make the single biggest contribution imaginable to solving the long-term challenges of the health service. We pledge together to feed our children and care for our elderly, and all they can come up with is their usual negativity. I'm not surprised The Daily Telegraph doesn't like radical action on second homes, but when they and the Tories line up against Wales, isn't that the surest sign that we must be doing something right?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, by the end of this Senedd term, it'll be 25 years in the wilderness for the Welsh Conservative Party, and as we've heard overnight and heard again today, they work very hard to deserve that position. I'll just point out—they won't like it again; I can see them shaking their heads from here—straight after the election, we had a debate here on the floor of the Senedd; much was said about the need to work together on issues on which we agreed. I wrote immediately after that to the leader of the Welsh Conservative Party here and I wrote to the leader of Plaid Cymru. I received a reply from the leader of Plaid Cymru; I received nothing at all from the leader of the Welsh Conservatives.FootnoteLink That's why they've never been anywhere near Government in this place, because they simply lack the maturity—the capacity, even—ever to be part of Government here. They're in the wilderness because it's where they deserve to be.

Correction from the First Minister

Adam Price AC: As we say in the foreword to our agreement, the people of Wales in voting to create our democracy also wanted a new kind of politics. Now maybe we can forgive, and indeed pity, the Conservatives for being trapped in their Westminster mindset; many of them after all would rather be there than here. They see the world in binary opposites; we try and draw upon the great Welsh tradition of co-operation. I referred to Robert Owen in my remarks yesterday, talking about a Wales built through the co-operation of all to the benefit of each. Out of that tradition we have created a new model, a bespoke agreement between one party in Government and one party in opposition, which nobody could have foreseen. But it is part of that desire for a new politics that built this institution and most people in Wales will welcome it because they don't want politicians who play Westminster parlour games; they want their elected representatives to work together to come up with solutions to our many problems. Isn't that, after all, the entire point of democracy?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, Adam Price is absolutely right to point to the way in which, ever since devolution, it has been possible to create agreements between progressive parties here; parties with ideas, parties with a willingness to take on the responsibility of being in Government. The very first summer that I worked in the then Assembly, Llywydd, the summer of the year 2000, every week I met with the head of staff of the Liberal Democrat party here, and we fashioned an agreement that that autumn led to the first cross-party Government here in Wales. We thought at the time that we were doing something very strange and unusual, and indeed I remember going with the then First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, to meetings of the Labour Party in which the strangeness and the unusual thing that he had done was fully borne in on him.
Since then, in successive Senedd terms, we have shown that here in Wales we are able to do things differently, that we are able to fashion a different sort of politics, in the way that Adam Price has said. The agreement that his party and mine have struck is different to any previous form of agreement, but that is because we were prepared to do the difficult thing, which is to find the creativity, to find the imagination, and to find the area for agreement between us. As a result, we will be able to achieve things in this Senedd for people right across Wales that might not have been possible otherwise. I think that will be welcomed. I think people outside the Senedd do expect us to work together when we can, on the things for which we have agreement, and they will see the practical fruits of that over the next three years.

Adam Price AC: Whatever the views of one on the content of the agreement, there are no two ways that this is a radical agreement that will deliver on some of the things that campaigners have been fighting for over decades, such as managing the housing market. But surely nobody could disagree that our citizens should be able to access correct information to hold us all to account, and it's clear to everyone that that isn't happening as it should at the moment. Now, to look at the London-based media that, to be fair, actually took the trouble of reporting on this development in Welsh politics yesterday, the ignorance was striking. One report referred to 15 Plaid Cymru Members of the Seneddand another mentioned that Plaid Cymru was the third party within Welsh Government. Shouldn't everyone be able to unite behind the opportunity provided by the agreement to close that democratic deficit and to create a media landscape in Wales that serves the needs of our people and empowers them to participate in our democracy?

Mark Drakeford AC: I agree with Adam Price because the democratic deficit is clear for everyone to see when they read what the press in London has said about almost everything that goes on here in Wales, and they did the same yesterday as well. At the end of the day, Llywydd, as we both mentioned yesterday, it will be in the hands of the people of Wales to make those decisions after the agreement. If the people of Wales can see what we're doing, the innovative things and ambitious things that we're trying to do, I'm sure that that will be appreciated. But it's in their hands at the end of the day.

Question 3 now, from Joyce Watson.

Violence Against Women and Girls

Joyce Watson AC: 3. What is the Welsh Government doing to address violence against women and girls? OQ57258

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Joyce Watson for that, Llywydd. We are strengthening our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy to include violence and abuse in public and in the workplace, as well as in the home. A public consultation on the strategy will be launched next month. This is a societal problem that requires a societal response.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you, First Minister. I know your Government continues to prioritise this issue, and in Jane Hutt we have a Minister for Social Justice who is a tireless champion for victims and survivors. But, unfortunately, the political determination to get on top of male violence against women and girls is too often undermined by the failures in the criminal justice system. The latest Office for National Statistics figures for England and Wales are a stark reminder of that: rape cases up 10 per cent from last year to June, while the number of cases resulting in a charge is at a record low. Of course, the legislation and many of the funding cuts behind these figures are non-devolved, but as we approach White Ribbon Day on Thursday, and the 16 days of activism that will follow, will you discuss with police forces and crime commissioners the urgent need to prioritise women and girls' safety?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Joyce Watson for that, Llywydd. Can I begin just by paying tribute to everything that she does throughout the year, and around the White Ribbon period as well, to highlight the issues that she has referred to again today? She's absolutely right that the points she raises are very important ones to the Welsh Government and very vigorously taken forward by the Minister for Social Justice. She meets very regularly with chief constables and with the police and crime commissioners. The lead police and crime commissioner at the moment, Llywydd, is the Dyfed-Powys police and crime commissioner, Dafydd Llywelyn. I know that the Minister met him last week and is due to meet him again on 16 December. The Policing Partnership Board for Wales will meet on 2 December. That will be an opportunity for us to continue the dialogue that we have established with our police forces. They're not devolved, as Joyce Watson said, but we have managed to create a set of institutional arrangements that make sure that the issues that are of concern to people in Wales are discussed there regularly, directly with police interests themselves, but with other partners as well in the local authorities, in the health service. We will be raising the issues that the Member has identified today again in that forum, and I want to say, Llywydd, for the record, that in our experience we get a very committed response from our partners and our police partners here in Wales.

Laura Anne Jones AC: This is an exceptionally important topic, especially this week ahead of White Ribbon Day, and I'd like to put on record my thanks to Joyce Watson for all her work in raising awareness of this important issue. We welcome the fact that, now, harassment has been included in the Live Fear Free campaign, but for those who reach out and escape violent situations for good, many will have to rebuild their lives from scratch, and support can often fall short, especially if victims have to flee the area where they've lived. Minister, what additional support will the Welsh Government commit to providing to victims who have had to flee domestic violence, especially when they've had to leave their entire support network behind?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Laura Anne Jones for those important points, Llywydd. She's absolutely right; the impact of domestic abuse is awful in anybody's life, but for people who have to uproot themselves from their own homes, and sometimes from their own communities, then the impact is all the greater. We will go on as a Welsh Government investing in the budgets we provide in this area. We've included an additional £2.5 million in non-recurrent funding this year, partly to help those services deal with the impact of the pandemic, where we know some of the points that the Member just made have been exacerbated—where people haven't had access to outside interests and organisations to whom they might have brought their plight to those people's attention. We're absolutely committed to the agenda and to funding it and look forward to working with others in this Chamber on it in the 12 months ahead.

Delyth Jewell AC: First Minister, as we've heard, this week marks the International Dayfor theEliminationofViolence Against Women. Every year we mark this day, and yet every year more women die because of male violence, and every day women modify their behaviour to avoid being attacked or killed. It sounds extreme, but that is an everyday calculation that countless women make. You recently supported a Plaid Cymru amendment calling for a Government strategy on preventing sexual assault and harassment. Could you tell us more about that strategy, please, and, importantly, how it will make life safer for women and girls, since 97 per cent of women between 18 and 24 have already experienced harassment in their lives? Four out of five women experience workplace harassment, and at least nine women are suspected to have had their lives taken by male violence in the last year in Wales. If we're talking about eliminating male violence against women, First Minister, it seems we do still have a very steep hill to climb.

Mark Drakeford AC: Those are dreadful figures that Delyth Jewell has just read out for us, and I absolutely agree with her that this is not a problem to be solved by victims. It is not for women to modify their behaviour in order to reach a solution; it is for men, in the way that they behave, and the way we bring up our children, especially boys, to be part of that solution. Later this week, my colleague the Minister for Social Justice will issue a statement on the annual progress report on violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence services here in Wales. We are looking to the report of the Law Commission, which is expected shortly, on recommended changes to hate crime legislation. We need to see a commitment to legislate from the UK Government when that commission report is available. That will help us to frame the strategy that Delyth Jewell referred to. That is being worked on actively by our officials and with our partners, our fantastic advisers in this field, to do the very best we can in Wales.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. I just really want to add as well my thanks to Joyce Watson, particularly for the candlelit vigil last night to mark White Ribbon Day. Thank you very much, Joyce, for organising that. It was an incredibly moving experience, and I'm sure those of us who were there felt it was something that was very important to us all. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
First Minister, over the summer I visited a number of providers in the region that Joyce Watson and I cover, Mid and West Wales, and also I've spoken with Welsh Women's Aid, and I'd like to thank those who spoke with me so openly about their services. One of the issues that I just wanted to pick up was about sustainability of funding for those providers and those services. Many talked to me about the short-term measures and funding that were in place, which causes significant problems in trying to plan services. I'm sure we'd all agree that many of them have provided an excellent service, particularly over the pandemic. So, I just wonder if you could give us a response around sustainability and more long-term funding, please. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you to the Member for the question, Llywydd.

Mark Drakeford AC: I absolutely do agree with her about the fantastic work that is done by third sector organisations, their partners in local government, and the work that is done by GPs as part of the IRIS project in identifying victims of domestic abuse. This is hard work, Llywydd. These are really difficult areas where people are often frightened to speak up, and the work that is done by people at the front line is absolutely commendable. As the Member will know, we have had to go through a series of years where the UK Government has only declared a one-year budget, pushing back the date of the three-year comprehensive spending review time and again. When we only know how much money we have one year at a time, inevitably, that means that we have to provide funding on that short-term basis to the partners that depend upon the budget decisions we make here. We have a three-year CSR and the ability now to plan ahead. That is really important not just to the Welsh Government itself, but very much to our partners out there in the third sector and in local authorities. Our aim when we lay our draft budget in December will be to pass on whatever certainty we now have to them as well.

Question 4 [OQ57226] has been withdrawn. Question 5—Alun Davies.

Transport Infrastructure in Blaenau Gwent

Alun Davies AC: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on investment in transport infrastructure in Blaenau Gwent? OQ57256

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. Completion of the £1 billion dualling of the A465 and major investment in rail infrastructure in Blaenau Gwent demonstrate the strength of the Welsh Government’s commitment to the Member’s constituents, even as the UK Government refuses to fund its own responsibilities.

Alun Davies AC: First Minister, the people of northern England discovered last week what we in Wales have known for some years—that you can't trust Tory promises when it comes to investment in infrastructure and trains and the future of connectivity in our communities. The people of England discovered last night in the House of Commons that this is a Government in London for London, that doesn't care about any part of the UK outside of London. First Minister, will the Welsh Government continue to support the investment in the Ebbw valley line? We know it is the responsibility of the UK Government, but they have refused, time and time again, to invest a single penny in their responsibilities to develop that line. It is the Welsh Government that's reopened that line, it is the Welsh Government that's invested in developing the line, it's the Welsh Government that's invested in the infrastructure of that line, it's the Welsh Government that's invested in the rolling stock on that line, because we have learnt in Blaenau Gwent that you can't trust a word that Boris Johnson and the Tories tell us.

Mark Drakeford AC: That is a view, Llywydd, shared by Robbie Moore, the Conservative MP for Keighley since 2019, who said that as a result of the announcement, his constituents had been completely short-changed. The announcement as far as the north of England is concerned, Llywydd, not only strips money away from that part of England, far away from London, as Alun Davies said, but it strips powers away from them as well. We are very used to this way of the current Conservative Government behaving. Andy Burnham said:
'Not only did we lose out on infrastructure, we got silenced as well'
and that the only formal structure in the British mechanism of Government that allows the north to come together with one voice has now been removed. Here in Wales we do go on doing things very differently, Llywydd. I'm very glad to see that there will be a new service on the Ebbw Vale line from Monday 13 December, an hourly service between Crosskeys and Newport, and the £70 million that the Welsh Government was able to provide to Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council will mean that the physical infrastructure will be put in place to make sure that those additional rail services run between Ebbw Vale and Newport as well.
Despite the cuts to people in the north of England announced last week, Llywydd, there is still a commitment of £98 billion to an England-only project, a shameless refusal by the Conservative Government in London to provide any consequential to us in Wales, a nonsensical claim that a hub in Crewe—[Interruption.] I made the mistake, Llywydd, of pausing for a moment in case the Member was saying something sensible. I should have known better, and I'll remember that next time. Listen to this, Llywydd; listen to it again: £98 billion—billion—being spent in England and not a penny in a consequential for Wales, and a nonsensical—a nonsensical—claim by his colleagues that a hub at Crewe and a hub in the midlands is somehow being put together for the benefit of Wales.
Members here will be familiar with these figures, because we've had to remind our colleagues there of them before: 40 per cent of the rail network in England is electrified, 25 per cent of the network in Scotland is electrified, and as a result of the actions of that Member's Government, 2 per cent of it is electrified in Wales. And as a result of this week's decisions, that figure in England will go up to 75 per cent—75 per cent for England and 2 per cent for Wales. That's what you get with a Conservative Government.

Natasha Asghar AS: First Minister, in the summer it was announced that more than £3 million-worth of improvements were set to be made on the road network of Blaenau Gwent. Local government funding was to be combined with an additional sum of Welsh Government funding to bring the total investment to over £3 million to improve the conditions of the roads in Blaenau Gwent, improvements that were described, and I quote, as 'critical' for local communities, businesses and visitors to the borough.
I tabled a written question to the Deputy Minister for Climate Change asking for a list of the roads that are being reviewed as a result of the road-building freeze, but he said that he was unable to provide the information before the roads review panel makes its initial report. In view of the Deputy Minister's inability to respond, can you advise if these much-needed road improvements will indeed go ahead in my region of South Wales East, within Blaenau Gwent itself? Thank you, First Minister.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I was doing my best to follow the question. As I understand it, the Minister has said to the Member that if she wants to get a better answer, she needs to ask a better question. I'll read the record of what's been said this afternoon, Llywydd, and if there is anything further that I can provide to the answer, then, of course, I'm happy to do that.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Since my election, I've conducted many street surgeries, and a pattern that you often see at these surgeries, when my team are out in Blaenau Gwent, is transportation to the Grange hospital. I know it can take up to 45 minutes to travel from the Grange to Tredegar, for example, as I've done it myself, but if you rely on public transport, it can be a much harder and much more time-consuming journey. Depending on where you live in Blaenau Gwent and what time of day it is, it can take up to four different buses and more than two hours just to go one way. I know in other parts of South Wales East it can be even worse than this.First Minister, do you agree that connectivity to the Grange hospital is not what it should be, and if so, what plans do you have to make this hospital more accessible to the people it serves?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I'm very well aware of the issue of bus links to the Grange hospital, having had extensive discussions about it with my colleague, Alun Davies and with my ministerial colleague, Lynne Neagle in the past as well. The Welsh Government is working actively with Transport for Wales and the local authorities to introduce a new bus link to the hospital that will go from Pontypool, Newbridge, Blackwood, Ystrad Mynach and Nelson. The plan is for it to be introduced early in 2022 and to operate it on a basis that will allow us to learn the lessons from that introduction and then to see what else might be necessary to make sure that there are good and reliable public transport links to the Grange.

Mental Health Services in North Wales

Sam Rowlands MS: 6. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board about mental health services in North Wales? OQ57254

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, in addition to ministerial oversight, there is regular engagement between Welsh Government officials and the health board as part of the targeted intervention that surrounds the provision of mental health services in north Wales.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, First Minister, for your response. I'd also like to take a moment just to point to the damning Holden report that came out last week, which my colleague, Darren Millar has raised with you earlier today, because it is such a significant report for my residents who I represent in north Wales. And, First Minister, this report is shocking. It does seem to point to a pattern of behaviour that stretches back many years. And as already highlighted, it was your Government that oversaw the significant failings of mental health services at this health board, and it's the same health board that you surprised many by taking it out of special measures just a few months before the elections in May.
Mental health is a key flagship policy of your Government's programme—indeed, in coalition with Plaid Cymru—for government, and yet, this report has shown that patients have come to harm and been neglected under the Welsh Government's watch. So, First Minister, how will you rebuild people's trust, especially the residents I serve in north Wales, for them to believe that you take mental health seriously?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I agree that it is important to make sure that there is proper trust between people who use services and the provision of those services in north Wales and elsewhere. In my discussion with the chair and chief executive of the board yesterday, they set out some of the achievements that are there in mental health services in north Wales: the national award for Llanfairfechan's learning disability service and the fact that they are achieving their waiting time targets for psychological therapies in north Wales. And then they pointed to the challenges that the board faces as well; challenges in its estate, and the Welsh Government is currently working with the board on proposals for new investment at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd in the physical estate for mental health services there; looking at recruitment where the board has had some success recently in bolstering its consultant psychiatry provision; developing new models, for example, with consultant therapists; joint work with community mental health services to move intervention more towards prevention than dealing with the consequences of mental ill health; and a recruitment campaign in January to bring more people into that service.
The Chair said to me that the board were completely appraised. Independent members had a comprehensive grasp of mental health services and challenges, and the new chief executive said to me that she had a relentless focus on improvement in mental health across BCU. Those things, I think, will help to rebuild and re-establish trust, and I believe that the board and its executives are fully committed to that journey.

Unpaid Carers

Jayne Bryant AC: 7. How will the Welsh Government support unpaid carers this winter? OQ57259

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, in recognition of the increased pressure caused by the pandemic, we have allocated additional funding of £10 million to support unpaid carers of all ages in this financial year, including £5.5 million allocated to local authorities to provide a range of support to unpaid carers over this winter.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. In a recently published report, Carers UK found that 36 per cent of carers in Wales said that they were struggling to make ends meet; 34 per cent wrote that their mental health was bad or very bad; and 36 per cent reported that they are often, or always, lonely. Very sadly, they also found that carers rated their overall satisfaction with life at an average of just 4 out of 10. Behind every statistic there's a person who is caring for a loved one.
Carers are absolutely invaluable. I know that there are support services in place, but many services have been, and still are being, disrupted by the pandemic. This Thursday marks CarersRights Day. Following the last 19 months, carers need our support now more than ever. What is the Welsh Government doing to restore disrupted care services, and how is the Welsh Government ensuring that all carers are aware of the support available?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I agree with everything that Jayne Bryant said about the invaluable service that unpaid carers provide in Wales, and the impact of the pandemic, both on them directly and on their ability to access services. Nonetheless, I think that partners right across Wales, and from all party political persuasions, are working very hard to make sure that those services are restored.
The Welsh Government recently provided £3 million to local authorities to help them with their respite care services. So, just to give you some examples—and my colleague Julie Morgan will say more about this, Llywydd, in a statement later this week—. In Gwynedd, in the north, the council there is using its share of that money to improve and to extend the range of respite care services that it provides. In Swansea, they have developed a rapid response respite at home service.
In Monmouth, 1,400 unpaid and young carers have taken advantage of a new scheme set up by the local authority to allow access to small-scale activities for people who spend so much of their time looking after others. I think that you can see there that there is both imagination and determination among our partners to restore those services, and to do it in a way that meets the needs of people who have offered so much.
Of course, Jayne Bryant is right, Llywydd, that knowing your rights as a carer is very important. I'm glad that, once again this year, the Welsh Government will help to fund and take part in the national carers' rights information campaign. It's a partnership with Carers Wales and the Carers Trust here in Wales. We have got some evidence, Llywydd, of some success in those efforts.
The Welsh Government made available £1.25 million in a carers' support fund to help with the particular impact of the pandemic. That fund was available between October of last year and the end of March of this year. Some 6,000 carers were able to draw down funding from that new funding stream, and 2,500 of them had never previously been in receipt of any form of support. That gives me some confidence that the efforts that are being made to make sure that the services that are available are known to the people who need them—that some success is being achieved in that.

The Holden Report

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 8. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board following the publication of the Holden report? OQ57257

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much to the Member, Llywydd. The decision to publish the full Holden report was a matter for the health board and the Information Commissioner’s Office. We continue to seek assurance regarding the implementation of the recommendations in the Holden report as part of our regular engagement with the health board.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that response. You said that it was a matter for the board. Well, your health Minister, who was Deputy Minister for mental health at the time, confirmed to me a year ago that she had read the Holden report. Now, that was 12 months ago, when the board was still in special measures, and still under the direct management of your Government. So, why then didn't you insist that the report was published when you ran the health board, because, of course, you did that for five of the eight long years that the people of north Wales had to wait for it to see the light of day?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, as I explained, Llywydd, it wasn't a matter for the Government to make that legal decision to publish the document. It was the responsibility of the board to make those decisions. That's why it's the board that has been in contact with the Information Commissioner's Office and has come to the conclusion with the office and with the tribunal that has been looking into the decisions made by the board to publish the report now. It was their responsibility, and it's they who are responsible for the decisions that they have made.

Thank you, First Minister. A point of order emerging from questions. Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I want to give the opportunity for the First Minister to correct the Record, if that’s possible. During First Minister’s question time he referred to some correspondence with the leader of the Welsh Conservative group, Andrew R.T. Davies, regarding a willingness to co-operate on areas of common interest. That particular letter was sent to the leader of the opposition on 18 May, and within 24 hours a response was issued from his office offering to meet with the First Minister. Meeting dates were put in the diary, but subsequently cancelled by the First Minister’s office, and the last message received from the First Minister’s office was that there would be contact to rearrange. I would like to give the opportunity for the First Minister to withdraw the allegation that was made earlier on, and correct the Record.

I’m sure that the First Minister isn’t in a position to look at the correspondence at this point, but I’m sure that this can be looked at at a later point, and that correspondence can be made to ensure that the Record is correct, or corrected if needs be.

Thank you for that.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

We'll move on to the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I’ve added two statements to today’s agenda. These are second homes and affordability by the Minister for Climate Change, and the Welsh language communities housing plan by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Mark Isherwood AC: I call for a debate in Welsh Government time on the Holden report. Ahead of last Thursday’s publication of this report, exposing serious and extensive problems with patient safety on the Hergest mental health unit in Bangor, a health expert involved in the appeal sent me his observations on the report and its appendix, stating, up until now, the health board was protesting that the main text of the Holden report and its appendix, completed in December 2013 and containing extracts from the damning statements of 40 whistleblowers, must remain hidden from public view in order to safeguard the confidentiality of the whistleblowers. The decision to withhold evidence of neglect on such spurious grounds was deliberate and wilful. He further states that the whistleblowers complained about the behaviour of three senior managers, including acts of bullying and conduct that put the care of patients at serious risk. He asks how then was it possible that in 2014 the most senior of these managers was allowed to make reports to the health board and its quality committee that concealed his own part in the Holden process. Has the health board now satisfied itself that the senior officials responsible for this mess, and for keeping it under wraps for so long, have now all been removed from any responsibility for the care of vulnerable mental health patients?
Responding to September's short debate on the Holden report, the health Minister said it was important to note that a summary report was published in 2015, including the Holden recommendations. It's therefore important to note that, when the health board's acting chief executive presented the summary report to the Senedd's Public Accounts Committee in November 2015, it was very brief and did not describe the 31 concerns listed by staff.
And last week, a Public Services Ombudsman for Wales report also revealed that the health board had made a fulsome apology to the son of a lady who received treatment on the Hergest ward—people's hero, David Graves—for the failings identified and injustice caused to him and his family—the hell that poor man's been put through by public bodies in Wales. I call for a debate in Welsh Government time accordingly.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As a Government, we very much welcome the publication of the full Holden report and we endorse the recommendations of the recent Public Services Ombudsman for Wales review into the care of a patient treated at the Hergest unit in 2013. We note that Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board has accepted all the recommendations and will ensure that these are implemented at pace.
The health board is in targeted intervention for its mental health services. That does retain significant Welsh Government oversight. It means there are very clear and agreed actions in place to ensure the service continues to improve.
We of course acknowledge that the delay in publishing the report will have been difficult for the individuals affected and their families, and we're very pleased the health board has decided that, in the interests of openness and transparency, future reports of this nature will be made public. As you heard the First Minister say in his answers, it was a matter for Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board when the report was published.
The Minister has announced a substantial package of strategic support for Betsi Cadwaladr UHB, including £12 million a year to support implementation of its mental health strategy, and to build capacity and capability in the organisation to be able to deliver the transformation that's required.

Delyth Jewell AC: Trefnydd, it's been two years this week since the Senedd discussed Lynne Neagle's Member debate on pancreatic cancer. My grandmother passed away from pancreatic cancer in 2005, so I'm one of too many people who know the brutal reality of this disease, which is both the quickest-killing cancer, and one with one of the lowest survival rates. Recently, I and Members attended a cross-party meeting with Pancreatic Cancer UK to discuss their current priorities as part of Pancreatic Cancer Awareness Month. They told us that they want to see pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy rolled out more widely within the Welsh NHS, since they say the science proves it's an effective treatment that can improve patients' quality of life andgive them the strength to undergo life-saving treatment, but that it's currently not being prescribed to 40 per cent of Welsh patients.
I'd like a Welsh Government statement, please, about pancreatic cancer that responds to this point specifically, but also that updates Members more generally on progress since the Welsh Government's commitment two years ago to take action to improve survival rates of this devastating cancer.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. And, as you say, it certainly is one of the most devastating cancers that we have. I'm not aware of the drug to which you refer, but the Minister does have questions that you're able to table this week and I would urge you to do that.

Alun Davies AC: Minister, over the last few months, we've seen the complete collapse of UK policy towards the European Union, and the collapse of many of the agreements made in the withdrawal agreement last year. The consequence of that may well be that article 16 is activated. This could cause enormous damage to the Welsh economy and to Welsh society. I'd be grateful therefore if the Welsh Government could make a statement on any contingency planning that is taking place in the Welsh Government with regard to ensuring that Wales is protected from any triggering of article 16.
On a wider point, I'd like to ask for another statement from the Welsh Government on the damage that Brexit is doing to this country. We've seen trade agreements reached with Australia and New Zealand that could cause extraordinary damage to the agriculture industry. We've seen a shortage of drivers, which has affected all parts of our economy. We've seen price increases that are leading to a real crisis for many families up and down the country. We are seeing the Welsh economy put under greater stress than at any time in recent history, as a consequence of a failed Brexit con. It is incumbent on the Welsh Government to ensure that people in Wales understand this damage and that we in this Chamber have an opportunity to discuss how we can address the damage that Brexit is doing in Wales. So, it would be a useful exercise, I think, if the Welsh Government were to commit to making regular statements to this Chamber on the damage that Brexit is doing to Wales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I can assure the Member, and all Members, that the Welsh Government is doing all it can to protect the people of Wales from the devastating, I think, impact of leaving the European Union. And certainly, the issues that you raised around trade and logistics are topics that we discuss at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs inter-ministerial group. The next one I will be chairing, and I'll certainly be very pleased to update Members in relation to the specific points about trade and also logistics, because, clearly, that is having a devastating impact. Who would think of having ballet dancers as a protected job and not having butchers? And we are seeing, unfortunately, a decrease in the number of butchers that we have available here.
In relation to your points around constitutional issues, the Counsel General I know is looking at these issues with the UK Government. Again, he has questions tomorrow; there may be an opportunity to raise with him if he has any further information.

Joel James MS: Trefnydd, as you may have seen, despite council and community opposition, developers have finally secured permission to demolish the historic Roath Park pub along City Road in Cardiff, following the trend that has seen the gradual destruction of Cardiff's historic fabric. Sadly, this is not an isolated incident, and campaigners are fighting right across the country to preserve buildings that are significant to them and their communities, but that haven't met the requirements set out by Cadw as having historic or architectural significance.
One such example is Cowbridge Girls' School in the Vale of Glamorgan, which was the first purpose-built secondary school for girls in Wales, and the first to have, I understand, a purpose-built science laboratory for girls' education in the entire United Kingdom. Regrettably, despite local, national and even significant academic opposition to these proposals, Cadw has refused to provide listed building consent, a decision that has been supported by the Welsh Minister. I believe that local residents should have the power to stop the demolition and destruction of buildings that they believe contribute to the character of their area, contribute to their health and well-being and which maintain a tangible link to the traditions and cultures of their community. With this in mind, will the Minister allow a debate on the issue to discuss what possible changes to planning legislation can be made that would give local authorities greater power to stop the destruction of buildings of local importance within their communities and also allow residents a greater say in how their area is developed? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Member refers to two very specific issues, which I'm not aware of, and obviously those decisions have been taken. On a more general point, I think it is very important that planning information, and also the way that Cadw do list buildings, is transparent, and I will ask the Minister—the Deputy Minister, sorry—if there is anything further that she's able to give you in order that you're able to advise your constituents.

James Evans MS: I'd just like to refer you to my Member's interests as a member of Powys County Council. Trefnydd, could we have a statement from the Minister responsible for planning regarding the delivery of local development plans? My colleague Janet Finch-Saunders and I met with a number of local authorities last week to discuss the new Natural Resources Wales phosphate guidance. And a number of those authorities are really concerned about the delivery of their local development plans because of the constraints this is putting on the delivery of social homes. The Welsh Government do have ambitious targets about delivery of social and affordable homes across Wales, and local authorities are concerned that this guidance is going to really hinder the delivery of those properties. So can we please have a statement from the Welsh Government on how you intend to tackle this problem? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I think the guidance provided by NRW is very clear. As you say, we do have affordable homes targets, social homes targets, and it's very important that the planning information and the technical advice notes are there to assist. So, I don't think really that it's necessary to have a further debate in Welsh Government time.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, business Minister. Of course, I welcomed your assurance last week that you and your Government have been liaising with the UK Council for Internet Safety, after it came to light that teachers were facing abuse on social media platforms such as TikTok. However, the situation has escalated, and teachers are continuing to be uploaded to the social media platform, and it's now being reported that some of these videos have hashtagssuch as 'paedo', others have extremely derogatory language, and some have included teachers' faces superimposed onto pornographic images. Minister, this is causing a lot of distress for teachers who have been targeted, and the teachers' union NASUWT have examples of teachers taking time off work due to stress, and even leaving the profession altogether now. I would welcome a detailed statement, please, on this matter, and what exact action has been taken, and what exact guidance has been issued to teachers, schools and local authorities on this matter, and for the Minister to outline in detail what discussions they've had with the other UK Governments, as well as the UK Council for Internet Safety. I believe this is something that the whole of the Senedd now needs to be aware of, given the severity of the problems and the impact it's now having on teaching careers and well-being and our children's education. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I think we discussed last week how completely unacceptable this sort of behaviour is, and it's incredibly disappointing that our teachers are being targeted with abuse on social media. I updated, I think last week, that we have asked TikTok to remove any instances of inappropriate or offensive content immediately, and we have provided guidance on harmful viral challenges to support teachers in dealing with any instances. The Minister has pledged to continue to work with the UK Council for Internet Safety, and also the UK Safer Internet Centre, so that we can have a co-ordinated approach, and I know he is looking at what can be done on a four-nation basis across the UK also.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I, first, would like to request two statements. But, in the first instance, I want to echo the points made by my colleague James Evans. I was present at the meeting; I think it was Friday. And I was amazed by the number of council leaders, planning officers, who attended the meeting and raised their concerns about the lack of—the stop to—building that's going ahead. And I know the coalition deal that you've done with Plaid Cymru—all the emphasis on second homes—but yet we have thousands of homes in Wales now that are unable to go ahead in planning. Young people simply cannot get on the ladder; we need more housing. It's true that the special areas of conservation management oversight group, a planning sub-group and an NRW project group with several work streams have been formed, but it has been made very clear to me that this is not working for our councils across Wales. So, will you arrange for the Minister to make an urgent oral statement outlining what steps she's going to take?
Secondly, the Minister knows that I'm opposed to the NHS COVID pass, but I accept that the majority voted in favour and that is democracy. The Older People's Commissioner for Wales, however, has highlighted that only 40 per cent of over-75s in Wales use the internet, compared to 71 per cent of 65 to 74-year-olds. It's essential that all residents have the ability to request a paper COVID pass, and, Minister—and the First Minister is here as well listening to this—I am receiving a lot—. We do have an older population in Aberconwy, and people are phoning quite distressed about the lack of ability to obtain a COVID pass so that they can go to a show or a theatre in our Venue Cymru. The phone lines are not always working—

You are out of time—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Okay. Just this quick point—

—and I don't want to do the Trefnydd's job for her, but we do have a statement and regulations on COVID passes later on this afternoon. So, you're asking for a statement that's about to be called, if you—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Right. A final quick point: the calls are costing between 2p and 40p per minute, and this is unacceptable. So, could we have a statement on that, and maybe include it—

Yes, yes. I will make sure that the statement happens this afternoon. The health Minister will be here to answer questions on COVID this afternoon.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you for your help, Llywydd.

And you can ask it again, Janet Finch-Saunders, if you want, to the Minister.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you.

I'll call you.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'll take you up on that. Thank you.

Yes. Trefnydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I don't think there's anything further to add, but I do agree with you that everybody should be able to get a paper pass.
In relation to the coalition deal you refer to, I presume you mean the co-operation agreement. You know, I absolutely agree with you—planning should be an enabler. It's really important that happens, and you'll be aware that planning has been updated. So, I really do not, as I said to James Evans, see the need for an urgent statement.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the First Minister: British-Irish Council Summit Wales

The next item, therefore, is the statement by the First Minister on the British-Irish Council summit in Wales. Therefore, the First Minister to make his statement—Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. On 19 November, Friday last, Wales hosted the thirty-sixth summit of the British-Irish Council at St Fagans National Museum of History in Cardiff. The Minister for Education and the Welsh Language and I represented the Welsh Government. We were joined by representatives of all BIC member administrations either in person or via our videoconferencing systems. I welcomed leaders from the UK, Ireland, which was represented by both the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man. I also held bilateral meetings with Michael Gove, who led the UK delegation, Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland, and the Northern Ireland Executive delegation—Ministers Deirdre Hargey and Gary Middleton—as well as the newly appointed Deputy Chief Minister of the Isle of Man, Jane Poole-Wilson.
The summit took place at a particularly crucial moment for the member administrations of the British-Irish Council, in the context of recovery from the pandemic, continuing discussions between the UK and the EU, and the need for Governments to work together to take action against climate change, following COP26 in Glasgow. Our collective discussions, Dirprwy Lywydd, provided a valuable opportunity to consider latest political developments, to share experiences on tackling common challenges, and to identify ways though which we can harness the combined experience and energy of the Governments to the benefit of all the people across the islands represented. In particular, at an early-morning meeting on Friday before the main summit plenary event, we discussed ways of accelerating the collective contributions that members of the BIC could make in pursuit of the COP26 agenda. The discussion focused on the importance of citizen and community engagement in a just transition to net zero, and work is planned to share research and consider further engagement with coastal, post-industrial and rural communities in this agenda.
The formal plenary provided an opportunity to explore different perspectives on the operation of the Northern Ireland protocol and the state of relations between the constituent members of the council and the European Union. In relation to the current position on the negotiations between the UK Government and the EU, I took the opportunity to reinforce the Welsh Government's view of the importance of making progress and resolving issues through dialogue rather than unilateral action or ultimatum.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diprwy Lywydd, each summit focuses on a particular strand within the work of the council. The Cardiff summit took as its theme support for minority, indigenous and lesser used languages, with specific reference to early years and childcare policy. In leading this item, we were able to draw on the pioneering work in Wales on early years language education.
In keeping with this theme of the summit, and in line with the way we work in Wales as a bilingual nation, the plenary discussions were conducted on a multilingual basis. For the first time at a summit of the BIC, there was simultaneous interpretation from Welsh, Irish and Gaelic into English, which enabled delegations from Wales, Scotland, and Ireland to make contributions to the discussions using their own languages. I was also delighted that contributions in Manx, Jèrriais, and Guernésiais also featured during our conversations, which further demonstrated the rich linguistic diversity across these islands.

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, we also noted progress made in the implementation of proposals agreed at the thirty-fifth BIC summit in Northern Ireland in June of this year, and particularly the scope for the newly established senior officials group to support the future work of the council. The plenary also endorsed the work of the ministerial group held earlier in the year, which focused on sustainable transport arrangements, particularly in the context of climate change. A joint communiqué was issued after the summit was over.
I'd like to take this opportunity, Dirprwy Lywydd, to put on record my thanks to David Anderson, director general of Amgueddfa Cymru, National Museum Wales, and the team at St Fagans for being such excellent hosts. Holding the event at the museum provided an opportunity to demonstrate the rich cultural history of Wales in a unique and memorable location, and that was widely appreciated by the visiting delegations. The summit agreed that it will meet again in the summer of 2022, and this time on the island of Guernsey.

On behalf of the Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, First Minister, for your statement. I think it's very welcome that you're making an oral statement to the Chamber following the summit in Wales, because, of course, usually, we tend to receive written statements only in respect of these important relationships. So, I do welcome that, and I would put on record a request, if I may, for this to be a more regular feature following British-Irish Council summits in the future. I'm also pleased to hear that the summit took place, of course, in St Fagans, something that I like to showcase visitors to Wales whenever they visit this part of the world. It truly is one of the most incredible museums, I think, in the whole of Europe, and it's always a delight to be able to see the expressions on people's faces as they learn about Wales, our culture and our history as they go around that tremendous place.
First Minister, you referred to a number of issues in your statement. Obviously, the protocol will have been something of an important issue for members of the summit to consider, and I am pleased that it does appear that is there a different mood music around the protocol at the moment, and there appears to be a great deal of willingness both on the European Commission side and the UK Government side to wanting to secure an agreement without triggering article 16. That, of course, is in everybody's interest, and I am pleased to see that that does appear now to be the case. Would you agree with me that that mood music was rather different at this particular summit than from previous discussions with Governments, both in London and Dublin, and what are your hopes and anticipations for the timescale for an agreement?
You made reference as well, of course, to the work that the British-Irish Council has done in terms of highlighting the issue of minority languages. As you will know, I have been a long-standing member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and one of our work streams in that assembly has been around minority languages, and the world-leading work that we have done here in Wales has been something that we have always liked to share and encourage other people in the various BIPA jurisdictions to adopt. So, I'm very pleased that the British-Irish Council has also been discussing this important issue. And I wonder whether you can tell us what consideration the British-Irish Council and the hosts of each summit give to the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly's agenda when considering what topics to include in the themes that are discussed at each meeting.
I noted with interest that you referred to the impact of the pandemic as well, of course, and the vaccination programme in your statement. That is also a subject of a current British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly inquiry—in fact, it's the European affairs committee of that British-Irish assembly, which I must declare an interest in as the chair of that committee. We are undertaking an inquiry into the roll-out of vaccinations across Europe and in the different BIPA jurisdictions at present, and I think it would be useful for the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly to share its findings with, obviously, all of the Governments in the different BIPA jurisdictions to see whether that has anything useful to add to the discussions that might take place.
I do welcome this statement. I hope that we can continue to have oral statements in the future on these important topics, and perhaps there will be some way in which parties across the Senedd can work together to feed some of these work streams into the wider parliamentary business of the Senedd in the future in order that we can capitalise on the good work that's been done by BIPA, the British-Irish Council and others in terms of forging these important relationships across the whole of the British isles.

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, I thank Darren Millar for that contribution. I was very keen to make an oral statement today both because this particular summit was held here in Wales and because of the significance of the items that were on the agenda, and I've heard what the Member has said about oral statements in future, were the British-Irish Council to be engaged on matters that clearly would be of interest here.
I share everything he said about St Fagans, in my own constituency, of course. This wasn't the first British-Irish Council to be held in St Fagans. The first one was held in 2002, and because I am as old as the hills, Dirprwy Lywydd, I was there at that one as well. Bertie Ahern was the Taoiseach—[Interruption.]—I should be; I may well be, indeed. [Laughter.] In those days, because the British-Irish Council had not long been in existence because of the Good Friday agreement, it was attended by the Prime Minister as well, and Darren Millar is absolutely right, Llywydd—you can see the impression that the museum makes on people who are visiting it for the first time, and that was very evident on Thursday and Friday last week.
I agree with what Darren Millar said, Dirprwy Lywydd—there was a different mood music. I'd met the German ambassador here in Cardiff early in the day on Thursday, and he reported the same impression from the Commission, and the contributions by Michael Gove at the plenary sessions particularly, I thought, were designed to assist in that different mood music to help to move forward the prospects of securing an agreement. Quite certainly, everybody who spoke—apart from the UK Government, who, for understandable reasons, I think, didn't comment on this issue, but I think every other contribution—emphasised, as the Member has, that it is in everybody's interests to avoid the triggering of article 16.
I thank Darren Millar for what he said about the parliamentary assembly's work. Personally, and on behalf of the Welsh Government, I have argued that there ought to be a closer synergy between the work of the council and the work of the assembly and that we ought to think about, every now and then, getting together where there is a common piece of work going on. That's not been a view necessarily supported by all members of the council, but my own view is that a great deal of work goes on in both forums, it often is of common interest, and certainly the COVID impact was discussed in a very lively way on Thursday and Friday, because, of course, the Republic of Ireland has recently had to introduce fresh measures, the Executive in Northern Ireland was in the middle of making its decisions, and, by now, we may have heard of conclusions in Scotland as well. So, I'm very happy to go on working on that idea that we should make more of the synergies that could be created between the work of the ministerial group and the parliamentary group when we're both engaged on common concerns.

The leader of Plaid Cymru,Adam Price

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. In your written statement in response to the previous summit, I think you mentioned that the UK Prime Minister had not attended, and he didn't attend again. In fact, I don't think he's ever attended, and I don't think Theresa May attended and neither did David Cameron. You have to go back to Gordon Brown in 2007, I think. I know this because I was reading—. He attended in Belfast at that time and I know this because it's included in Ieuan Wyn Jones's new book, and he was representing the Welsh Government at that summit whilst Rhodri Morgan was recovering from illness. And Gordon Brown only turned up because Ian Paisley and Micheál Martin had threatened to cancel the whole thing if he hadn't done so. So, why do you think that UK Prime Ministers are so unwilling to attend the summit? Isn't it important? Whilst every other Government, as a rule, sends their First Ministers, and in this case the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, doesn't it at least show some disrespect, if truth be told, to the other Governments that the UK Government isn't represented in the same way?
Micheál Martin, the Taoiseach, has put forward some ideas in relation to the council and strengthening the council. I'm wondering whether he shares some of the ideas you have mentioned now, your ideas on reforming the relationship with the parliamentary assembly. There is a different constitutional status to the various members of the council, isn't there? You have the Republic, of course, as an independent nation; you have Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland with their own devolved parliaments; and then you have the Crown dependencies too, which have a status somewhere in between—quite interestingly, outwith the European Union but within the customs union, outside the UK but espousing British identity. That's interesting in the context of the discussions that will come up through the constitutional commission. I wonder whether you had an opportunity during the conversations at the periphery, which can be the most interesting during these sessions, to discuss the constitutional commission and the lessons that can be learned from that range of constitutional models that might be relevant to us.
Finally, minority languages was one of the themes discussed. Was there any discussion at all on the pledge by the UK Government to introduce legislation on the Irish language in Northern Ireland following the political crisis in Stormont some years ago? There has been a pledge to legislate before the end of the year, but there are only a few weeks remaining of this year. So, was there anything to report in terms of progress to that end?

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much to Adam Price. I have been three or four times to these summits, and every time the absence of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is raised. I can see, a decade ago, when the system after the Good Friday agreement was running quite smoothly and we were all still within the European Union—I can see that there was a case for the Prime Minister not attending. But, in the Brexit context and in the context of everything that has happened post Brexit, the case for the Prime Minister to be there and to discuss with the partners who are so important within that agreement—well, that case is strengthened, I think, and several people expressed disappointment that Mr Johnson wasn't there. There was an opportunity to be there and speak to the other people present.
There was an interesting discussion with the Taoiseach and others about how we can strengthen the council, and there are a number of ideas. I referred to the new group of senior officials. We're going to ask them to do some work on howwe can strengthen, on the one hand, the council and also reform how the council operates, so that we can derive everything from the opportunity when people travel from all over to come together. It was very interesting of course to hear from the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey. They have very interesting points of view. For example, the Chief Minister of Jersey had a great deal to say about fisheries and how that is part of the discussions with the European Union.
There wasn't a great deal of mention made in the plenary about legislation with regard to Northern Ireland and the Irish language, but that happened on the periphery of the summit. There were many people talking about the importance on the one hand and sensitivity on the other hand of this whole topic, and what the UK Government has promised to do and, at present, hasn't delivered on.

Alun Davies AC: Like others, I welcome the oral statement this afternoon. I welcome the opportunity to debate and discuss the issues that have arisen, both from the meetings last week but also the wider issues of relationships in these islands. Like others who have spoken this afternoon, I also agree that the council is a good opportunity for us not just to root and deepen peace in the islands of the British isles, but also to learn from each other. And, certainly, as a past participant myself, I can certainly say that I learned a great deal from colleague Ministers in other administrations. But, you also met, First Minister, last week, at an extraordinarily difficult time in relations between these islands. I think that anyone who followed the debate and the discussion around the Northern Ireland protocol has seen nothing in the last year of its operation that was either unexpected, not predicted or in any way surprising. And the failure of UK policy in this field is a profoundly troubling matter for us all.
But, in terms of the place of Northern Ireland, of course, it does have a direct effect on the politics and policy of this place, because if we agree common frameworks that include the territory of Northern Ireland, and if Northern Ireland is following mainstream European regulations, then it is difficult to see how a common framework that includes Northern Ireland can vary itself from—

The Member must conclude now.

Alun Davies AC: —European norms. Therefore, First Minister, my question is: how do you see the operation of common frameworks, if there is a determination in UK policy—and we saw Lord Frost saying this again—that they want there to be a major turn away from EU regulations, because that will have a direct impact on the way that common frameworks operate here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Alun Davies for that, Dirprwy Lywydd. He's absolutely right to point to the fact that the discussions about the future of the protocol have a direct impact on us here in Wales. I do very much regret the fact that the UK Government—Lord Frost being their agent in this matter—refused our request to be in the room when these discussions were taking place. Our only purpose in being there would have been to ensure that essential Welsh interests were known to those who were making the decisions. We weren't expecting to be decision makers. We thought we had a constructive part to play in making sure that those who did make decisions were well informed about the impact of the protocol on Welsh ports, for example, which I did discuss extensively with the Taoiseach and with Mr Gove.
Common frameworks work, Dirprwy Lywydd, has gone on quietly and in the background, more slowly than we would have wished, but making progress. And I'm still optimistic that we may be in a position to publish a series of those common frameworks for external scrutiny before too long. The context within which that work is carried out, however, has undoubtedly been made more challenging by the atmosphere that has, up until more recently, surrounded these discussions.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. You say in your statement today that dialogue, not unilateral actions or ultimatums, is important, and of course that will be true in terms of not invoking article 16 to hide behind the mess that has somehow been created by a bad deal. I'm really concerned about the ports of Milford Haven, Fishguard and Pembroke Dock—all valued employers in my region. I notice on camera that the Taoiseach said that already they've seen reduced activity in those ports, and we've all read reports about sea traffic evading and bypassing the Welsh ports. If we add in free ports as well, the sustainability and the viability of these ports start to come into question, and will be ultimately severely challenged. So, I want to know, First Minister, what conversations you had, raising those issues that I've just raised with Michael Gove at the British-Irish Council.

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, I thank Joyce Watson for that very important question, which is absolutely relevant to the part of Wales that she represents. I did have an opportunity to discuss these issues, both with Mr Gove but also with the Taoiseach as well. The danger for Wales, Dirprwy Lywydd, is that we are being squeezed in both directions. People in the Republic are making plans to transport goods directly to the continent of Europe, bypassing all the new complexities that they have to face if they bring goods into Welsh ports, because we're no longer members of the single market or the customs union. And at the other side, there is evidence of goods being imported into the United Kingdom going north on the island of Ireland, and then coming across from Northern Ireland into ports in England and Scotland; again, in order to avoid the complexities that leaving the European Union has created.
The Taoiseach was very clear with me that, in the view of his Government, the land bridge remains the quickest, the safest, the most efficient, economically beneficial route to transport goods between Ireland and the United Kingdom and the rest of the European Union. But for that land bridge to be effective again, we need a stable agreement, because people are going to have to have complexity, but they need complexity that they can get to grips with, understand, and then operate. The danger is—and this is where I think we have to be as vigilant as we can—that when people invest time and money and energy in establishing alternatives, even if they were meant to be short-term alternatives, if you're not careful those things become permanent. Even though they are not as efficient, even though they take longer, even though they're more expensive, if you've put a lot of your time and energy into establishing them, you may decide that it's just easier to stick with them, and if that were the case, then that would certainly be to the detriment of ports here in Wales.

Rhianon Passmore AC: First Minister, the pandemic and COP too have shown the need for closer working between Governments across the globe. The British-Irish Council summit, hosted by the Welsh Government at our iconic St Fagans National Museum of History, was a unique opportunity for Wales to show the value of how we are all stronger working co-operatively together.
First Minister, did you have an opportunity during your bilateral meeting with Michael Gove, who led the UK delegation, to raise also the grave concerns of the communities of Islwyn that we are being and will be potentially short-changed by the UK Tory Government? The confidence of the people of Islwyn is not helped when the Prime Minister addressing the Confederation of British Industry recently descended into total incoherence before asking the assembled audience if anyone had been to Peppa Pig World. First Minister, how can we and the Welsh Government ensure better clarity and transparency with the UK Government's funding of Welsh communities following the UK leaving the European Union, and how can the Welsh Government continue to drive systemic co-operation from a Tory Government seemingly intent on dilution of devolution?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Rhianon Passmore for that, Dirprwy Lywydd. The bilateral meetings that are possible around an event like the BIC are very valuable. I did have such a meeting with Mr Gove. My aim in those meetings is that where I think we can work on things together, I want to emphasise those things, and I want to make progress on positive ground. We did that on a number of issues, the UK inquiry into the COVID experience being one of them. But I cannot leave a meeting of that sort without being as clear as I could be, and I don't think I could have been more direct with the Secretary of State in making it clear to him that the way that Wales has lost out in funding, in decision making, in those things that were promised to Wales as a result of leaving the European Union, and the operation of the internal market Act to achieve all of that, is the single most difficult challenge facing the United Kingdom today, because it poisons relationships. Until the UK Government is prepared to take a different approach to those matters, that will always be there in the background, despite the efforts that Michael Gove himself—I'm happy to acknowledge that—and we, where we can, try to make on areas where more common ground is possible.

And finally, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. I appreciate the comments about the discussions that were had around the port of Holyhead, and you're quite right that there's squeezing from both sides, with the increased traffic directly to the continent, but also there's the Northern Ireland link. Can you give me an assurance that you will press the UK Government to not in any way allow Liverpool ports, ports on the Mersey, to be given prominence over Holyhead? I remember as far back as the development of the TEN-T transport network, where Holyhead was seen as lower priority than the ports on the Mersey at that time. Now we're coming to a point where that really means something, and we need those assurances for the port of Holyhead.

Mark Drakeford AC: I'm absolutely happy to give that assurance, Dirprwy Lywydd. I did directly raise with the UK Government not simply ports in Pembrokeshire, but particularly the impact on Holyhead given its significance as a port to the whole of the United Kingdom in the BIC context, and Welsh Ministers lose no opportunity to make sure that we return to this issue with UK Ministers whenever we have that chance, and to press them to go beyond the sort of assurances we have had up until now, which is that all this is just teething trouble, that it will all settle down, and that provided we all just keep crossing our fingers, it'll all be all right. Well, I'm afraid, as every week goes by, that view of the world becomes a little harder to sustain, and we really need to move UK Ministers beyond that, to think about what actions they can take, and we are prepared to take as well, to make sure that the real advantages that there are of trading through those Welsh ports are secured for the future.

Thank you, First Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Update on COVID-19

The next item is the statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services, an update on COVID-19. I call on the Minister, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, for the opportunity to provide Members with the latest information about the public health situation and the outcome of last week’s review of the coronavirus regulations.
Since my last update three weeks ago, there has been a reduction in overall rates of infection in Wales. They have fallen back from very high levels that we saw at the end of October, thanks to the hard work of everyone across Wales. However, we aren’t out of the woods yet. Cases remain high across Wales at around 500 cases per 100,000 people, people are continuing to be admitted to hospital with COVID-19 and, very sadly, the latest data shows that over 250 deaths have been registered involving the virus in Wales in the past three weeks.
Our healthcare system is under intense pressure at the moment from the combination of pandemic and winter pressures; from a spike in emergency demands while also trying to catch up with the treatment and operations that were postponed earlier in the pandemic. Our NHS and care staff are doing a fantastic job under extraordinary circumstances. I want to thank them for everything that they do every day. They continue to play a crucial role in our response to the pandemic, whilst also caring for those who need help.
Wales will remain at alert level zero for the next three weeks. There'll be no further changes to the suite of protections that we have in place. We will not be extending the use of the COVID pass any further at this time. But, we will continue to keep it as an option to help keep hospitality businesses open and trading through the winter months and the busy Christmas period.
We will continue to work with the sector. Our aim is to keep Wales open and to keep Wales safe. Cases may have fallen back from the record high rates we saw just a few weeks ago, but the pandemic is far from over. A fourth wave is sweeping across Europe and many countries are introducing new restrictions to control the spread of coronavirus. Austria started a 20-day full lockdown yesterday, and will make COVID vaccinations compulsory from February. Germany is considering following suit after introducing new restrictions for unvaccinated people in many areas. Slovakia introduced a lockdown for the unvaccinated yesterday. The Czech Government is limiting access to a range of services, and the Netherlands has a partial lockdown in place.
Closer to home, the Republic of Ireland has introduced new protections following a surge of cases. These include a midnight curfew for hospitality, working from home and an extension of its COVID pass to theatres and cinemas. In Northern Ireland, a COVID pass will be introduced for hospitality, nightclubs, events, cinemas and theatres, and the Executive is considering further restrictions to reduce rising cases. In Scotland, the Government is deciding whether to extend its vaccine passport to indoor cinemas and theatres. I believe that they have decided that they won't be doing that at this stage.

Eluned Morgan AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, vaccination is our best defence against this awful virus, especially when combined with all the other measures we can take to protect ourselves. We continue to encourage everyone who is eligible to take up the offer of vaccination and the booster. We are implementing the latest advice from the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation to offer a second dose of the vaccine to young people between the ages of 16 and 17 years. And we will also be extending the booster programme to people aged 40 to 49.
Our vaccination programme is now offering first doses to everyone aged 12 and over on the principle that no one is left behind, second doses for everyone eligible, including young people between the ages of 16 and 17, a third primary dose to people who are severely immunosuppressed, and booster doses for eligible groups, including people between the ages of 40 and 49. To date, 90 per cent of eligible adults have had a first dose of the vaccine and 82 per cent have had a second dose. More than 725,000 booster doses have been given so far, with 71 per cent of all front-line healthcare staff, three quarters of people over 80, and 78 per cent of eligible care home residents having received the booster.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the signs from the continent are not good. A new wave of coronavirus is once again sweeping across Europe, and countries all around us are tightening their restrictions. None of us wants to see restrictions back in place in Wales at Christmas, but neither do we want to see people falling ill with COVID at Christmas. This three-week cycle is vital. We need everyone’s help and support to keep the virus under control as we start looking ahead and planning for Christmas.
We will continue to do everything we can through our fantastic vaccination and booster programme; regular testing in schools and putting other protective measures in place to keep the virus out of schools; using the COVID pass in certain settings; self-isolating if someone we live with has COVID-19; and taking all the simple steps that keep us all safe, such as regular hand washing, wearing face masks, and keeping social distance wherever possible.
The decline in rates since the last review is very positive, but there's still more we need to do. Let’s work together and let's keep Wales safe. Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Conservative spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I first of all thank the Minister for the advance copy of the statement, which was greatly appreciated? I share in your pleasure that we're seeing those rates of COVID lower in Wales. That is positive news, albeit from a very, very high case rate, and of course I share your concern as well about the level of those that are sadly dying from COVID.
I wonder if I can firstly ask, Minister, some questions around vaccine passports. The most alarming part, to me, of your statement today was that you are keeping it as an option to introduce COVID passes for the hospitality sector. This is particularly, I think, concerning. In your statement, Minister, you say that you'll continue to work with the sector, so what are they telling you? What are the hospitality sector telling you in regard to the introduction of COVID passes for their sector, and what are their asks, as well? Previously, when I have raised the issue about additional cost, the answer back, the reply, has been, 'Well, if you're going into a theatre or a cinema, then you have to show documentation so there shouldn't be any additional work in that regard.' This is different for the hospitality sector. If you're a cafe or a restaurant or some elements of the other parts of the hospitality sector, you will require additional staff, potentially, to be on the door, and of course there is an issue at the moment in terms of attracting staff to come and work in the hospitality sector, let alone the cost that is attached to it. As this option is remaining on the table, can you outline what discussions you're having with the economy Minister and the finance Minister in regard to additional financial support for the hospitality sector, should you extend COVID passes in this regard? I certainly hope you won't, for all the reasons that I've previously outlined.
In regard to evidence, you referred in your statement today to the case rates in parts of Europe, in some of the continental countries of Europe. Case rates are increasing at an alarming rate. Some of those countries, of course, have had COVID passes for some time, so the data should be there if the evidence is there. I appreciate that in Wales there's time for the vaccine passport to bed in, and that data may not yet be available, but I think it is particularly crucial to have that evidence as soon as possible in regard to the effectiveness of COVID passes, particularly since a number of studies have shown that people who are double vaccinated are just as likely to pass on COVID as unvaccinated people. So, it's all the more crucial that we have the evidence that demonstrates the support for COVID passes, if you believe that is the appropriate way forward, which I, of course, don't.
Minister, if I can ask about mandatory vaccinations, in your statement you correctly, of course, point out that there was, in Austria, a full lockdown yesterday, and they will make vaccinations compulsory from February, and other countries are considering the same as well. I am entirely opposed to vaccinations being compulsory. I think that is the Welsh Government's position and that is your position as well. I'd be grateful if you could confirm that is the position or not. I certainly agree with you that vaccination is our best defence against the awful virus, and I think that we should all be encouraging everyone to take up the vaccination in that regard, but your thoughts on mandatory vaccination would be appreciated.
Walk-in vaccination centres for booster jabs—I think this is the appropriate way forward, particularly as we go to those lower age groups. You yourself say you want to encourage people to be vaccinated. I agree with that. To do that, I think we need walk-in centres, particularly as we go to those lower age groups, because those lower age groups are going to be in a working environment, and we need to make it as easy as possible for people to have those booster jabs. Now, previously, you have said that you don't support this approach, that it's a free-for-all. Do you still hold that position? I'd be grateful if you could outline which health boards across Wales are considering or have introduced walk-in centres because I think there is a disparity about what is happening across Wales. So, in the context of your view that you have got concern that they are a free-for-all, and also, that some health boards are operating walk-in centres and others aren't, your views in that regard would be appreciated.
And, finally, I'm sure as you have, I have deep concerns, of course, about the state of the current NHS in Wales. Last month, we saw the worst ever A&E waiting times, the worst ever ambulance response times, the longest treatment waiting lists on record—nearly 9,500 people waiting more than 12 hours for emergency treatment. That's 2,000 more people in Wales than the whole of England, and considering England is 16 times bigger, that's a concerning position. We've got one in four patients that are waiting over a year for treatment compared to one in 19 in England. So, the staff, as you say, are doing a fantastic job, health Minister, and what they need, of course, is support to do their job. So, I'm highly concerned, as you are—

You need to ask the question now because your time is up.

Russell George AC: I'm getting to my last question, Deputy Presiding Officer. In regard to the A&E waiting times and many waiting up to 36 hours, can you please give us details about your plan to support our fantastic NHS staff in terms of bringing down those waiting times, and the additional beds that are needed to stop the backlog that we've seen to the extent we have in terms of ambulances waiting outside A&E in hospitals?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, diolch yn fawr Russell. I must say, in terms of the vaccine passport, we will, like everything else, keep all the options on the table. I think it would be irresponsible for us, particularly when we see the rates on the continent go through the roof, not to keep everything on the table. So, that option will continue to be on the table. We continue our discussions with the sector. It is true that we're having mixed messages, if I'm honest, from the sector. Some clearly are less enthusiastic about the prospect of vaccine passports, but many, many others are saying, 'Look, if this is what it will take to keep us open over Christmas, then we'll welcome it.' So, they prefer the security of knowing what the situation is likely to be, and keeping it open is really what they are really focused on.
I think, in terms of the continent, it's clear that the delta variant is hitting them much later than it hit us. So, we know that there's a 70 per cent advantage of the delta variant over the alpha variant, which is why it is really becoming far more transmissible now on the continent. And there's plenty of evidence to demonstrate that indoor places, where lots of people congregate, we are more likely to see the spread of the virus. So, there's plenty of evidence to support that case. And, so, that's what we're keeping our eye on.
We don't have any plans for compulsory vaccinations. We're very proud of the fact that the Welsh public have responded really positively to the vaccination programme. We've got 91 per cent of people over the age of 16 who've had the first vaccination; 86 per cent of people over 16 have had the second dose. And I think we've got to bear this in mind constantly. When we keep on worrying about the situation in relation to a COVID pass—86 per cent of the public have had their vaccination, both vaccinations. It's the minority that's making a lot of noise here, and I do think that we need to be very careful that we're listening not just to the voices of the minority, but we are protecting the majority who've come with us on this journey, who see it and understand their responsibility to their fellow human beings. And I think it's really important that we don't lose sight of that.
The vaccination plan in Wales, in terms of the booster, it's not a free for all, no; we are doing a very comprehensive programme where we're calling people in an order, where we're following the same order as we did with the first vaccination. Obviously, with Pfizer it's more complicated because people have to wait for 15 minutes after they've had their vaccination. So, it is a more sophisticated and more difficult programme. And, obviously, we have lots of different vaccination programmes that we're undertaking at the same time here. It's a very, very complex mix that we're trying to service at the moment.
And, of course, we're more than aware of the pressure on the NHS at the moment, and that's why we do have, in particular, when it comes to emergency services—we've put an extra £25 million into emergency care. We are developing these urgent primary care centres; we're completing the 111 call centres; we are developing more same-day emergency care centres to avoid admission into hospitals; and we're implementing far more discharge to assess. So, all of those things are being undertaken with our six goals programme, and, of course, on top of that, we've brought the army in to help us out with the ambulance service, and we are really focused on the fragility of our care service.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for the statement. The situation is still very serious obviously, although I am pleased to see figures reducing somewhat, in terms of numbers, and in terms of the positivity rate too. But this afternoon, I'm thinking particularly about Ffion Parry, a 10-year-old girl from Amlwch, in my constituency, who's been gravely ill in Alder Hey hospital, after her body responded very badly to this virus. And I want to wish her and her family well. And that is why we are taking this virus seriously, and that's why each and every one of us, in all parties in this place, need to be considered in our response to it.
Yes, I understand the frustrations of people that we are still facing some restrictions that are having an impact on our daily lives. But I'm sure I'm speaking on behalf of every politician and everyone who makes laws and regulations, that we look forward to scrapping those laws and regulations as soon as possible, but we aren't at that point as of yet.
A few issues I wanted to raise—. First of all, a lack of consistency in terms of the provision of the booster. I'm grateful to the Minister for saying earlier that an official will look at the situation in my constituency—in Holyhead and Amlwch—where far lower numbers have had the booster in those areas. But I would like an assurance about the steps being taken to ensure consistency in the provision of the booster across Wales.
Secondly, vaccination, of course, is our greatest protection, we know that. But I am still concerned that there is a lack of action on some of the other fundamentals that could keep us safe. And, when I see pictures or hear reports about trains that are full to overflowing and people not wearing masks as they travel to rugby matches, then, clearly there is still a lack of enforcement. And I would like to know what steps the Government is taking to seek to tackle those problems, and in schools too. It's an issue I've raised time and time again: what's going to be done, as we go deeper into the winter months, to strengthen ventilation policies and open windows in schools to keep pupils and staff safe?
If I can turn to COVID passes, we've discussed the difficulties that some people have had in getting through to that central helpline to ask for a paper pass. And I appreciate the written statement made in the letter by the Minister, this morning, stating that there will be greater capacity in the system. I'm looking forward to hearing that that is working, because if a COVID pass is a sensible step in principle, it does have to work on a practical level too.
But one very specific point: there are concerns from people who support the principle as to how it's operating on a practical level. I've mentioned to the Minister already one cinema, where there was great frustration about having to turn people away—grandparents there with their grandchildren, who couldn't get in, because they had failed to get their paper pass. They had their proof of vaccination, and they wanted to use that to come in. But it wasn't possible to allow that, because they didn't have the official pass. Now, the cinema was asking whether there was another way of using that proof of vaccination along with an ID, for example. Now, I know that one could have a lateral flow test, and that would avoid the need for waiting for the COVID pass.But, it is clear that there is a lack of understanding still; it's clear that people and many institutions need more help in order to ensure that they can keep things tight, as they want to do. So, can I ask what additional support the Government and the Minister can offer to that cinema and to other institutions across Wales, who do want to support this and to work with the policy, but are having some difficulty on occasion?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I am very sorry to hear about Ffion's situation, and we all think about her and wish her all the best. And I think that's a very important point to make: none of us know how we will respond when we catch coronavirus, and that's why it's so important that we do have the vaccine if we're offered it. So, I am very pleased to see that so many people have taken up the opportunity to have the vaccine. Other than those who are already physically weak and those who have previous medical conditions, a vast percentage of the 58 people in critical care in our hospitals are those who haven't been vaccinated. I do think we need to think about our responsibility as individuals to think about the pressure on our hospitals at the moment. And when 10 per cent of the beds in our hospitals are tied up with COVID, I do think we have to ask questions of everyone who doesn't take up the opportunity to be vaccinated to ask, 'Where does your responsibility lie to us who, perhaps, need to use the NHS for other things as well?'
In terms of enforcement, it is important that we do ensure that if we do introduce these new rules, enforcement is undertaken. And that is why we have constant discussions with the police, with, for example, those people who are responsible for trains and buses and with local government as well, and that happens very regularly. You will have seen that someone in Swansea didn't want to use passes for a cinema; it is worth saying that I have had a response from Ben in Snowcat Cinema, and what he told me was that, since we introduced the COVID pass—

Eluned Morgan AC: —since we've introduced the COVID pass, in his cinema, he has seen the sales go through the roof; that, actually, people are far more comfortable about going to the cinema now, they feel safer and they're asking, 'Can we keep those measures once you take them away—? If you're going to dismantle them, we would like to continue to enforce them'. And I think it's really important that people hear that message; that, actually, the public are responding really positively and they're saying, 'I feel safer. Your establishment is one that I am going to go to.'
I'm very aware of the capacity in the system in terms of the telephone service if people are unable to download the pass. That's why we're putting far more resources into that and making sure that the number of phone lines, for example, are increased. So, all of that work is happening. And, of course, as you say, it is possible for people to use the lateral flow test if that is unavailable to them. So, I hope that that's been helpful. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for your statement, Minister. I speak to an awful lot of people and get an awful lot of e-mails, like everybody else here, and it is the case that people do support those restrictions that we currently have and those ones that we are operating. And I've also had messages where people now feel able to go out and enjoy their lives a little bit more because of those COVID passes, where they were extremely nervous to do so before. But on the other hand, of course, I do understand that people don't support them; that they want all restrictions to come to an end. However, the figures tell us the reality of the spread of this infection and this virus, and we only have to look around in Europe to see exactly what is happening.
So, in terms of asking you a question, you do hint—and you've done it again today—that it may be possible that we have to expand the COVID passes into other areas where they are currently not used. When would you make that decision? What would be the trigger point at which you'd have to decide?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Joyce. I think, actually, that one of the things that it might be worth us all considering is using different language around this. We keep on talking about restrictions. Well, I think that it's important that we start to talk about protections, because that's what we are putting in place—protections. We're trying to protect the public here from coronavirus. So, that's certainly something that I'm going to try and use in my discussions in future.
Certainly, in relation to the COVID pass and any possible expansion, of course that will be done in the context of the 21-day review that we undertake every three weeks. The trigger for that will be, as always, the potential and the possibility of the NHS being overwhelmed as we go into the winter period. So, that's always the trigger for us: can the NHS cope?
Frankly, we still haven't really seen the flu really come at us with the kind of force that we were expecting. We're still waiting for that, and it's possible that it will come. But we will keep an eye on things. About 10 per cent of our hospital beds at the moment are filled with COVID patients. Now, that's quite a lot of people. Obviously, we need to keep an eye on that situation, but it's also about keeping an eye on the broader NHS. That's an important situation. Diolch.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for your statement, Minister, and for providing a briefing to Members of the health committee at lunchtime today. As in previous updates, I want to focus my questions on the care sector, as those living in care homes and their families have been deeply affected by the pandemic. Thankfully, a successful UK vaccination programme has meant that care home visits can once again take place.
Minister, how will your Government ensure that care home residents will remain able to be visited by, and able to visit, their loved ones? What steps are you taking to accelerate the booster vaccine programme for care home staff and residents? Some care homes across the UK are now asking for proof of vaccination for care home visitors. Is this something that the Welsh Government is considering introducing?
Finally, Minister, alongside COVID—and you've touched on it briefly in your answer to Joyce Watson—is the flu. Flu will be a big threat to those in care this winter. Will you publish flu vaccination rates for care home staff and residents, as well as outline the steps that you are taking to boost vaccination rates? Thank you very much.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks, Gareth. Like you, I'm keeping a very close eye on the care sector, as is my colleague Julie Morgan—very concerned about the relationship between care homes and hospitals and the flow through that is crucial to keep the whole system moving. We do have very clear guidelines when it comes to visiting care homes. So, all of those are set out, and you will find that information on our website. That includes the fact that visitors do need to take a lateral flow test before they visit a care home. So, that facility is already in place.
About 77 per cent of care home residents have already received their booster vaccination. I was very pleased that we hit our proposed timetable, which was to offer all those care home residents the booster by 1 November. We did hit that milestone, so I was very pleased to see that. I can find you the flu vaccination rates for care home residents, but obviously that is one of the first places that we go in terms of getting the flu vaccine rolled out.But I will say this, and that is that we are not seeing the same uptake by the public in general across Wales when it comes to flu vaccination as we did last year. I would encourage people to take up that opportunity, because we genuinely don't know what's ahead of us, and we all need to take all of our protections seriously.

And finally, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Thank you very much indeed. What hope can you give to the constituents who have contacted me saying that they have had one vaccination in England and one in Wales, and, despite being passed from pillar to post for weeks, they still can't get their COVID pass because they can't show that they've had both vaccinations? And what hope can you give to the growing number of constituents who have contacted me telling me that they've been told that the booster vaccination in Wales will not be included on their COVID pass for overseas travel, despite Franceand other EU states saying that people from the UK will have to demonstrate that they’ve had the booster vaccination either to enter the country or to access restaurants and hospitality venues?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Well, in terms of the vaccination in England and Wales, that surprises me that it’s such a problem because, actually, we’re sharing the data together. So, if you can write to me about that specific case, I’ll be more than happy to take that up. The COVID pass is a shared system, so we’re doing that together with England.
When it comes to overseas travel and the booster, we were only told, I think it was, last week that England would be updating it. They didn’t give us the opportunity to request that we did it at the same time prior to that. Once they told us, we said, ‘For goodness sake, let us have that opportunity.’ So, they will be giving us that opportunity. I’m hoping that, by the end of next week, that will be in place, so they should be able to show on their COVID pass that they’ve had the booster as well.

I thank Minister. I call on Joel James.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for giving me an opportunity to correct the record. It was just with regard to the business statement earlier. As you know, I’m a councillor, and I forgot to mention that when I spoke. Thank you.

Well, it's on the record now. Thank you very much.

We will now suspend proceedings to allow changeovers in the Siambr. I'd like remind Members, if they are leaving the Siambr, to please do so promptly. The bell will be rung two minutes before proceedings restart. And finally, any Members who arrive after a changeover should wait until the bell rings before entering the Siambr.

Plenary was suspended at 15:52.

The Senedd reconvened at 16:02, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

5. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Second Homes and Affordability

That brings us to item 5, a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on second homes and affordability. I call on the Minister to make the statement. Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. This Government has a strong, proud record in building affordable housing. Our programme for government reflects our continuing commitment to this with our ambitious target of delivering 20,000 low-carbon social homes for rent this term. But, for some people living in some parts of Wales, an affordable home is beyond their reach because of a combination of rising house prices and a disproportionate number of second homes and short-term holiday lets.
We want young people to have a realistic prospect of buying or renting affordable homes in the places they have grown up, so they can live and work in their local communities. High numbers of second and holiday homes in one area can threaten the Welsh language in its heartlands and affect the sustainability of some rural areas. We are a welcoming nation and tourism is a major part of our economy, bringing jobs and income to many parts of Wales, but we also don’t want ghost villages in seasonal holiday spots—places where no-one is at home during the winter months.
These are complex issues and there are no quick fixes. What may be right for one community may not work for another. We also need to avoid unintended consequences. Certainly, we need to take communities and the people living there with us if we are to find and implement effective responses. And, in a context where commentators point to a lack of robust evidence about what works, we have to forge our own Welsh way, developing our own evidence and our own solutions. I think we all acknowledge there is no one silver bullet here, and we will need to bring forward a range of actions.
In July, I set out the Government’s three-pronged approach: addressing issues of affordability; using our regulatory framework to better manage additional second homes and short-term holiday lets; and, using national and local taxation to ensure second home owners make a fairer contribution.
Our consultation on local taxes for second homes and self-catering accommodation has just closed. Almost 1,000 people responded to the consultation, which shows the strength of feeling and the range of views. We are working through these and will respond with the next steps to ensure a fair financial contribution is made, which reflects social justice.
In his excellent report, 'Second homes: Developing new policies in Wales', Dr Simon Brooks recommended we pilot changes to planning law as a means of addressing excess numbers of second homes in specific local communities. Over the summer, we've been working with Gwynedd Council, and I would just like to put on record my thanks to the council for the constructive and positive way they have engaged with us. Starting in January, we will run a phased pilot to test a number of interventions in Dwyfor, in Gwynedd. This will be the first time we have intervened in the market to support local people to live in their local communities in this way. Dwyfor is one of our Welsh-speaking heartlands. It's an area where second homes range from around one in five to almost half of the available stock.
The first phase of the pilot will include a range of practical support to help people access affordable housing, and will link to our existing and new interventions in a way that really makes a difference. We have already started work on preliminary actions, so we can start delivering with our partners as soon as possible. I will say more about these after the finance Minister has published the draft budget next month, but we are keen to look at shared equity schemes, rental solutions and what we can do with empty homes.
In phase two, we will look at the planning system itself. We know that the planning system plays a key role in supporting our efforts to manage additional second homes and short-term holiday lets. The evidence suggests issues around second homes are usually localised rather than nationwide. Planning law, though, applies across the whole of Wales. So, today, I am launching a consultation on changes that would enable local planning authorities to switch on the need for planning permission to change from a primary home to a secondary home or a short-term holiday let.
We are proposing changes to the use classes Order, which would, if implemented, create specific use classes for primary, secondary and short-term holiday residences. Alongside this, the consultation seeks views on proposals to amend the general permitted development Order. These would make movement between these classes permitted development. Individual planning authorities would then be able to decide whether they wished to remove the permitted development rights through what's called an article 4 direction. If implemented, this would mean that planning permission would be needed to move homes between the different uses of primary, secondary homes and short-term holiday lets in the areas where the local authorities had decided that was what they wished to do. We will also ask about possible changes to 'Planning Policy Wales', referencing any changes.
We are not prejudging the outcomes of this consultation or the local consultations on article 4 directions. It is very important to hear and take account of all voices, and we and our partners must and will do that. If there is broad support for these changes, we will be able to change legislation and evaluate the impact. I anticipate that that can begin to happen from next summer. If Gwynedd Council and Snowdonia National Park decide, after consultation and on the basis of their evidence, to use their powers in Dwyfor, we will include the impact of this within the pilot.
We are currently working with a contractor on the feasibility and shape of a statutory licensing or registration scheme for all holiday accommodation, including short-term lets. As part of this work, we will engage with local partners with a view to establishing a voluntary scheme in the pilot area, to draw lessons to inform the operation of a statutory scheme.While Dwyfor will be the focus of the pilot, an independent evaluation will include ongoing action learning, so that other areas can engage, influence and learn from the pilot. We want to know the combined effect of the actions we take as part of our three-pronged approach.
One of the things we already do know is that there are too many homes sitting empty and idle. To help address this, the Welsh Government will grant aid Gwynedd Council £2 million for the purchase of empty homes for social rent. At least £1 million of this must be spent in the Dwyfor pilot. A further £1 million each will be available to Anglesey, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire councils for the same purpose. The funding will help us assess the impact this has in communities in need of social homes and where Welsh is a community language.
I have today set out the next steps to address the complex issue of second homes to ensure people can live and work in their local areas. There are no easy answers here and I look forward to working with Gwynedd Council through the Dwyfor pilot, but also with Plaid Cymru, to develop these measures further, as part of the co-operation agreement that the First Minister announced yesterday. We are committed to finding solutions that will make a real and lasting difference. We will continue to explore everything that can be done and develop the best possible policy approaches. I look forward to your support in this. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister, for bringing this statement to the Chamber today. Before I begin, I would like to refer Members and members of the public to my own register of interests as regards property ownership.
Now, yesterday, we all heard that the Welsh Government announced their coalition deal with Plaid Cymru. Many of us who've been here some time now believe that that was very heavy on rhetoric but light on detail. Just one day later, how surprising it is to find that the Welsh Government has now announced that it will grant £2 million in aid to Plaid Cymru-led Gwynedd Council for the purchase of empty homes for social rent. Minister, whilst it's really good that you're providing £1 million for other local authorities, Wales does have 22 local authorities, and I do think that, once again, this should not be party politically motivated.
I have many misgivings about the statement made today, as it is important that the Welsh Government does not intervene in the market in a manner that has too much of an impact. The Welsh Government needs to be supporting people to buy houses, rather than lowering house prices inadvertently. Therefore, increasing premiums is not the answer, neither is the possibility of enabling local planning authorities to switch on the need for planning permission to change from a primary home to a secondary home or short-term holiday let.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: During the cross-party group on housing last week, Shelter Cymru officials present agreed that the tackling of second homes will not solve the issue of housing affordability. The simple fact here is that we need to be building more homes—well, rather, you as a Government need to be building more homes. Around 7,400 new homes are needed annually to meet the demand in Wales, and whilst every electoral term comes, or Senedd term comes, we get promises of what's going to happen, but it doesn't happen. In 2019 registrations of new homes were down by 12 per cent. This is incredibly disappointing given that there are 67,000 households currently on housing waiting lists in Wales, and some of those, a large number, are in the constituency of Aberconwy.
So, Minister, will you confirm what other progress has been made to convert empty public sector land into sites ready for development? You know in the groups that we've had cross-party, you are fully aware that I have pointed this out, that our public bodies have lots and lots of land available, and, in fact, buildings available that would make safe and comfortable homes for those wishing to get on the housing ladder. I haven't seen anything like that coming forward, but have heard the rhetoric by Plaid Cymru many times about how second homes and holiday lets are so bad for us that I feel you're going down that road a bit too quickly.
It was highlighted to me only last week that as many as 10,000 homes—1,000 of these affordable—cannot now be progressed due to Natural Resources Wales guidance on phosphorus. I asked for a statement, in the business statement earlier, from you and James Evans my colleague did also, because we met with leaders, we met with cabinet members, and we met with planning officers of many councils across Wales last week, and they were all saying the same thing: you're asking for more houses to be built, but you're stopping them with these planning regulations on phosphorus. So, you need to plunge this block by either asking NRW to suspend its guidance or through implementing exceptions and phosphate-stripping capability in our drainage systems.
Affordability needs to be addressed by removing the cap on aspiration by cutting land transaction tax. So, whilst I welcome the announcement from the Minister for finance that new legislation will allow taxpayers to claim a refund of the higher rates of LTT where they are replacing their main residence, so as to make Wales their home and economically contribute to our communities, will you be able to confirm the timeline for bringing forward such legislation?
And we do need to confront the issue of empty properties, and, as I say, some of your initiatives are good, but this has got to be done on a far more fair and balanced proportionality. There were 25,725 long-term empty properties in Wales, and four years later—shockingly—this figure has only reduced by 24. The National Residential Landlords Association have proposed removing the second home land transaction tax premium and separating buy-to-let properties from second homes—because, again, I would ask you to tell us today, Minister, what you consider to be a second home—as they are defined in current discourse, encouraging landlords to help address the empty property issue.
As a representative said during my recent round-table, held in conjunction with Propertymark, 'Why are we not incentivising the renovation of empty space above empty shops?' I've heard that for 11 years: 'We're going to bring back all those empty office spaces above shops in our high streets.' I don't know of too many where that has happened. As regards empty shops and taking those shops back, in some instances, if you knock buildings down, you get your value added tax back; if you renovate, you do not. Will you commit to working with UK Government to review this specific situation as a means to help encourage the renovation of affordable central properties and rejuvenate our high street?
To conclude, I look forward to your responses to these most pressing questions and hope that they will give pause for thought over your policy's direction of travel. We want to work with you, Minister. We believe there is an issue, there aren't enough homes in Wales, but there has to be a far more balanced and proportionate response, and this should not be part of any coalition deal with another political party.

Julie James AC: I think I detected four questions in that rather long speech, so I'll—[Interruption.] I think there were four, I think I'm right in saying, which considering the length of the speech is quite something. But, there we are.
The first one was about land for house building. Janet Finch-Saunders, because she's part of the cross-party working group, will know perfectly well that we have been working with local authorities right across Wales on their local development plans to identify housing land that is identified in the LDP to understand why it isn't brought forward for housing and to make sure that we've removed all the barriers for that. She would do well to discuss with Propertymark and others how much land banking there is in the private sector across Wales and why the release of housing is so slow, and whether that has any effect on the current house prices, because I think she'd be quite surprised by some of the answers.
The idea that the solution to house building is to remove pollution controls on floodplains is quite extraordinary. I cannot understand at all how the Conservatives can, on the one hand, say that they agree that there's a climate emergency and on the other hand say that we should build on floodplains with phosphate problems. So, I'm not going to even dignify that with an answer, because it's quite obvious what the answer is. Of course we can't build on floodplains where there's a danger of flooding or pollution. So, we have to find other land or we have to find flood defence capability to make sure that that land is available. And I've got absolutely no problem with NRW's guidance on the subject.
The empty homes figures are interesting. They include houses that are, of course, up for sale. She knows that as well from the cross-party group. We have been working very hard to make sure that we have proper figures on empty homes, and we have a number of initiatives in that regard, as she will also know. So, for a very long time now, we have been offering grant aid to people to bring the empty homes back into beneficial use, either for their own use, if they live in them for five years, or to give them to us as social rented homes, where that's suitable.
On VAT, again, Janet Finch-Saunders does not seem to understand that she's a member of a Conservative Party that has not removed VAT on refurbishing homes, or renovation or reuse. Perhaps she would like to address that to her own Government, who have absolutely refused to do so despite their own declaration of a climate emergency.
And the last thing I would say is that, if she honestly thinks there isn't a problem with second homes, then I suggest she gets out more, because in most parts of Wales there most certainly is.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: For the record, I have a home where I have a long-term tenant in situ in Aberystwyth.
Thank you very much for the statement, Minister. There are generations of people who have been campaigning to encourage governments to take action on this crisis, a crisis that's been facing some of our communities over decades. Back at the beginning of the 1980s, my predecessor in Dwyfor, Dafydd Wigley, put forward ideas to tackle the issue of second homes in Westminster, but he was ignored then. We also have to acknowledge the role of Gwynedd Council—and Plaid Cymru leads that council—as they have already done much of the work around this area, and I thank them for their leadership in this area.
The fact that we are seeing concrete steps here to tackle this issue of second homes and affordability in some of Wales's communities is to be welcomed. There is some sadness that it's taken so long, of course, with many communities having seen huge depopulation over decades because of the failure of government after government to take the issue seriously and to take action. But, better late than never, and this range of policies does provide some hope. It's also important that the consultation is staged in a balanced and fair way and the right process and timetable followed fully. We can't prejudice the outcome; every voice has to be heard. We can't, either, risk harming any opportunities we have to take action on any possible solutions.The agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Government that we've heard mention of today already on these specific issues does show that it's possible to work a different kind of politics in Wales. This shows the value of devolution and that it's possible to find solutions in Wales to those problems facing us here in Wales.
We must also recognise that the broader housing crisis is having an impact on communities across Wales. The affordability of homes and rental costs means that many can't pay for a roof above their heads, and I look forward to working with the Government on finding solutions to these problems, too, as we work on that White Paper. Of course, the challenge is therefore huge, but with the political will, the vision, strong policies and sufficient financial resources to deliver these objectives, there is hope for a better future for Wales's communities.
So, to conclude, I do want to ask a few questions of the Minister, if I may. What assurance and what solutions can we provide to other communities, those outwith the pilot areas, and convince them that they won't be left behind? There will be many concerned about the length of these pilots and the relatively small amounts of money provided at the moment, so how quickly can we expect these other areas to be included in the Government's response once the pilot has been implemented and once we've learnt lessons from this programme, so that every area can see benefits as soon as possible? And is there a commitment to increase the financial commitment on the basis of a successful pilot?
And finally, whilst the White Paper is on the way, as well as talk about rental costs and house prices—and that's certainly to be welcomed—I'd like to ask what urgent steps will be put in place in order to respond to the unsustainable growth in the gap between house prices, rental prices and salaries, which prevent many people from keeping a roof over their heads. Thank you, Llywydd.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Mabon. In terms of whether we can roll the pilot out, we've got to get to the pilot first. One of the things that we will be doing is putting an evaluation contract in place so that we can get the data from that pilot as rapidly as is humanly possible so that we can evaluate what we're seeing from the pilot, the effect it's having, and what we will need to do to adjust it, if anything. Obviously, that data is essential for other communities who are looking on to see whether they want to take part in similar pilots, so I would anticipate that we would get the data coming in pretty swiftly—house price data, occupancy data and so on—and we will be able to use that data to assist other areas to do it.
Assuming the planning consultation allows the use class Order to be changed and any subsequent article for consultation done by a local authority comes out that they would like to do this, there's nothing to stop them doing it. What we're doing in the pilot area is assisting the council to go a little bit faster with that with some additional resource so we can get the information from the pilot. So, we're not putting any barriers in the way of councils doing it; we are assisting Gwynedd, who have been extremely helpful and co-operative in this, and it's been a pleasure to work with them over very many months now in coming to this point, to go a bit faster so that we can get that data in. So, the message there is that it's possible elsewhere, but we're going to assist in a particular area of need.
In terms of all the other provisions, we are of course forging ahead with our building of the 20,000 zero-carbon or low-carbon social homes. We are in conversation with councils in the areas with high levels of second homes to identify land in order to do that and to make sure that our RSLs and stock-owning councils are stepping up to that. I'm really pleased that that's going very well, despite the fact that we have major global supply chain cost increases. So, we've been able to help with that for our SME builders right across Wales to make sure that they stay in business, and to assist with additional moneys into the social housing grant to assist with the supply price inflation issues, which are affecting, as I'm sure every Member of the Senedd knows, all building work, right across the Chamber.
The last bit was just around what we're doing to make sure that the rented accommodation market recovers in areas of high tourism and second homes. One of the things we're wanting to see in the pilot is whether the registration of holiday lets on the same basis or similar to the Rent Smart Wales arrangements will have an effect on whether people choose to stay in the long-term rented sector or they still want to go across to the holiday lets. So, one of the points of the pilot is to pilot whether we can have an influence on whether people make that decision or not, in order to increase the supply of long-term rented accommodation in large numbers in the particularly beautiful parts of Wales.

Mike Hedges AC: I very much welcome the statement by the Minister. If we had a surfeit of housing, then second home ownership would not be a problem, but unfortunately, we have a shortage of accommodation across Wales and in certain parts of Wales, a massive shortage. I find it morally wrong that some people have two or more houses and others are either homeless, living in very poor quality housing or living in accommodation that is totally inadequate for the numbers living in it.
Does the Minister agree that the large-scale building of council housing has to be part of any housing solution? We know that the only time we had house building and demand in equilibrium was during the time that large-scale council housing was built in the 1950s and 1960s.
Short-term holiday lets is a growing problem, even in Swansea East. I will again ask that properties for short-term rent are controlled via the planning system; it just happens and it causes huge problems to the neighbours. I agree that the testing of something in one area is a brilliant idea, and I hope that other Ministers will learn from that so that we can test things before we implement them across the whole of Wales.
Finally, can I again ask that housing is excluded from small business rate relief? That is one of the things that distorts the market, and allows people to make lots of money by not paying any council tax and not paying any small business rates. I think we need to make sure that housing is for people, not for profit.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Mike. I completely agree with you about the large-scale social house building. That's why we've got the 20,000 social homes for rent in this Senedd term. Councils have only recently, of course, been removed from the Conservative cap on the housing revenue accounts, and they've done remarkable things since then in stepping up their house building, having to reconstitute much of their skills and talent base that they'd lost in the 40 years since Thatcher took the right away from them. I'm really pleased with the success that they've had in doing that, and we are certainly working with the 11 stock-holding councils to ramp that up right across Wales in conjunction with registered social landlord partners as well.
In terms of the short-term rents, one of the things that we are very determined to do is implement the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016. The renting homes Act changes the relationship between landlords and tenants and will really help in the short-term rental section. It will give landlords certainty of income and better tools to make sure that their good tenants stay in place. And it will give tenants better tools to use against the rogue landlords that we have very few of in Wales, but where we do encounter them, we do need to deal with it. I'm very pleased that we will be able to do that, and we're on course to implement that as we go.
Of course, the business rate exemption point is part of the consultation that is now complete. We are just analysing the 1,000-odd responses that we got from that, and we'll be able to come back to the Senedd with the outcome of that as soon as we've been able to analyse those responses.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. As a member of the Local Government and Housing Committee, one of the things that has struck me the most is the lack of any reliable and quantifiable evidence on what is actually happening in communities that appear to be affected by second home ownership, despite the fact that this Government is looking to change planning policy in this country to deal with it. I recognise that, in some places, there is an acute issue with housing, but without proper investigation it is only ever going to be speculative as to what are the causes of the housing problem. Your own research document, 'Research on second homes: evidence review summary', published in July this year, which no doubt has helped inform your statement, has very few references to any evidence collected in Wales whatsoever, with most of the evidence used coming from a wider European perspective, even as far as Turkey. Furthermore, the report states that
'the literature does not enable us to either delineate or quantify the impact of second homes in Wales with precision in order to fully understand the breadth of impacts. Evaluating and addressing the impact of second homes on housing markets and communities therefore remains largely a matter of judgement'.
Can the Minister therefore clarify if this Government has plans to collect any relevant data about the actual impact of second homes in Wales in order to guide their policy rather than simply collect evidence that just assesses the impact of the second home proposals you've just announced? Thank you.

Julie James AC: The very short answer to that is 'yes, we do'. We are collecting a range of evidence already, and of course we'll be evaluating the pilot. I understand the evidence report that he's citing, but I think the evidence of our own eyes is just there for all to see. The house price boom that we're currently experiencing right across the UK and the very, very heated market in Wales is pricing people out of the market as we speak. You've only got to look at the local newspapers to see the increase in house prices and the speed with which the houses are being sold, sometimes to people who haven't even seen them. That's not being sold to people who want to live in those houses, that's being sold as an investment. One of the problems with the UK housing market is that it's not just a home, it is an investment, and that really does confuse the figures that we're looking at. So, the empty property figures that Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned, for example, include houses up for sale. So, it's very difficult to do that, but we are very determined to improve the data, and of course I just answered in response to Mabon that we will be evaluating the pilot very carefully, with a contract put in place to do just that.

John Griffiths, Chair of the housing committee.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and yes, I will be speaking in my capacity as Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee today. I thank the Minister for her statement. Our committee will be looking at housing in the round over the courseof this Senedd term—the availability of affordable, good quality housing that meets the climate change challenges. Our first work stream is, however, on second homes—a subset, really, of that overall picture—and we recently launched a public consultation as part of this inquiry, which will be open until mid January. We hope to receive a wide range of responses in order to gather evidence, and we hope that will come from a spectrum of different perspectives so that we hear all points of view on these very important matters.
I do think the Minister's statement today is very timely as we begin our inquiry. One of the main strands of our work will be to examine the recommendations of Dr Simon Brooks in his report, and we will also look, of course, at the Welsh Government's response to those recommendations. Part of that governmental response was to take forward the pilots and, obviously, to evaluate them in due course. I wonder, Minister, if you could say a little bit more about that exercise and what were the criteria used to decide on the pilot area. Obviously, the extent of the issues in that particular part of Wales is very important, but I wonder if you could add to that with any other criteria that were used. And also, if you could say anything about the extent of community interest in becoming pilot areas. It would be good to know what the extent of that interest was.
It's very topical, of course, this issue, and it's had quite a deal of media attention in recent months and, indeed, over quite a long period of time. And I think now particularly in light of the pandemic and its potential impact in terms of increasing people's ability to work from home, and appreciation of the environment and a desire to live in attractive coastal and rural areas, I wonder if the Minister agrees that that's an added dimension at the moment that needs to be factored into consideration of these issues.
We haven't yet received enough evidence to draw any conclusions, but we do know this is a very complex issue. As Joel said, we've heard that more research and data are needed in order to fully understand the scale of the issue, and we'll continue to explore that through our work. We're also eager to better understand where the balance lies between the economic benefits of second homes and at what point you reach what I think is often described as a tipping point, where potential economic benefits are outweighed by social harm. 
So, we will continue our inquiry into the new year when we'll be inviting stakeholders with a range of views to present their evidence, and we'll also be inviting you, Minister, to give formal evidence to the inquiry before we consider our conclusions and issue a report. Diolch yn fawr.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, John Griffiths. I'm really looking forward to working with the committee on this, so I'll be delighted to come and give evidence to the committee on their inquiry. This is a big issue right across Wales, actually. Some areas, though, have a real hotspot for it. The pilot was chosen because we had been in conversation with Gwynedd Council for some considerable time before hitting on a pilot about the problems in Gwynedd. Gwynedd has one of the highest levels of second homes, as in people who aren't using them for their primary residence, in Wales, and it's a concern that the council had expressed to me in my previous role as the Minister for Housing and Local Government on a number of occasions. So, we were able to work well with Gwynedd Council, who were able to work with their community to make sure that the community wished to have the pilot. So, that's how the pilot came to be. We were also very keen to pilot it in an area with a high level of second houses and holiday lets, and in a Welsh-speaking area, for obvious reasons, because some of the concerns are around what happens to the Welsh language if you have a large number of people who don't live all the time in the community. 
I'd just like to make the point, though, that you have absolutely hit on, that during the pandemic, people became aware that they could work from pretty much anywhere as long as they had a decent broadband connection, and are moving out of the cities. My own personal point of view is that Wales is a welcoming nation. If you want to come and make your home in Wales and integrate with the local community and put your kids in the local school, you are very welcome. That is a completely different thing to saying that what you want to do is to have a lovely house on a coastal path somewhere, overlooking a beautiful sea, that you're going to come to three weekends a year. That is a very different kettle of fish altogether. Expanding our communities because people want to come and live and work and be in them is one thing. Emptying them out, or hollowing them out, because we have a large number of houses that are largely empty, is quite another.
We know that we want sustainable communities. Sustainable communities are communities that can sustain things like shops and pubs and community facilities. If there aren't enough people in the community to do that, then the whole community has that tipping point that you mentioned. So, the pilot is there to see whether the interventions that we are suggesting will make a difference to that, whether the people of Dwyfor are happy with the interventions or have other things to suggest, and the data coming back from it will be invaluable. It's an action learning contract that we're letting for the data from the pilot. So, I'll be delighted to be able to share that with Members of the Senedd and with the committee, John, as the data starts to come in, so we have a dynamic set of data that we can share.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. I'd also like to welcome the comments you just made there to the Chairman of the committee and thank you for your ongoing communication, as a member of the Local Government and Housing Committee, as well. In line with your statement, Minister, I agree with you that we need to understand the issues fully, in line with the comments from Joel James there as well, gathering the evidence so that we can get a full picture of some of the challenges, but also, as you pointed out a moment ago in one of your responses, remembering the acute challenge, perhaps, that this can be in some communities, which are vastly different from one community to the other, even just a couple of miles apart from each other. You acknowledge in your statement, and I'll quote, the
'need to avoid unintended consequences'
with any measures that may be implemented on this issue. As you will know, a huge concern that I have with the second homes discussion at times is the tone of the debate and the possibly damaging effect it could have on our tourism sector in Wales. As you will be aware, it is a vitally important sector in my region of North Wales, where it supports tens of thousands of jobs and contributes around £3.5 billion a year to the economy. So, Minister, what work will you undertake, with the Minister for Economy, to ensure that Wales continues to be seen as an open and welcoming country? Yes, for those 11 million overnight domestic visitors, for the 87 million day visitors, and for the 1 million international visitors that we welcome year on year, who come to Wales, spending their money, supporting our jobs for local people, and seeing the exceptional attractions that our country has to offer. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely, Sam Rowlands. I completely agree with that. Wales is indeed a welcoming country, and one that is very proud of its tourism offer and the welcome we keep in the hillsides, to quote the famous song. So, absolutely. This isn't about not welcoming people who are coming on holiday to spend their money with us and spend their time with us and share their life and experiences with us—of course it isn't—but those tourists want to come to vibrant communities. They don't want to come to shell towns where there are no shops and no pub, nothing, because it can't sustain itself through the winter months when there's nobody there. People want to go to a vibrant community. When I go as a tourist to different parts of Wales, I want to see a vibrant community there. I don't want to see a hollowed-out shell with just nothing but holiday lets. So, this is all about the right level and the sustainability. Frankly, I think it's essential to the tourist offer. You don't want to go to what's effectively a holiday park; you want to go to a vibrant town or village or wherever you're going, and you want to see the way that the locals live their lives, because that's part of the experience of the tourist offer.
So, this is all about the balance. It's about making sure that people can grow up, live, and expect to carry on living in the community that they've grown up in and feel part of, and then welcome the visitors in numbers, because of course that will be very much part of their economic offer. So, it's all about the balance, and as I said, I also make the distinction between people who are moving to Wales and making their home here, who are very welcome, and people who are just using it very occasionally for one or two weekends, who really do have a very bad effect on the economy, because that house would otherwise be supporting a family or a tourist offer that would be in use all the time and would therefore bring economic benefit to the area.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for your statement, Minister, and I welcome the action being taken by the Welsh Government. The lack of affordable housing across the UK is an issue acutely felt by younger generations. Many are unable to get a mortgage and feel trapped within the private rented sector, paying off the landlord's mortgage instead of being allowed to pay off their own. Often, tenants can be paying far more in rental payments than they would be in mortgage repayments and yet they are told that they cannot afford a mortgage.
What steps will the Minister take to encourage banks and building societies, particularly community banks such as Banc Cambria, to take the historic rental payments of tenants into account when offering mortgages? And will the Welsh Government introduce rent controls to help those struggling within the existing private rental sector? Diolch.

Julie James AC: Yes. Thanks, Carolyn, those are two very good points. We have been talking to some lenders about whether or not we could devise a scheme that allowed a long rental record of perhaps more than the mortgage to be taken into account on ability to pay. Often, though, a deposit is also a problem for people renting, because getting their deposit together can be really problematic. So, one of the things that we're going to pilot in the Dwyfor area is a slight change to something called Homebuy. We have a scheme called Homebuy that I think you're familiar with, where we assist people to buy a house by taking a public equity stake in it, effectively, and then, when you sell the house, you pay back the equity stake and you sell the house to whoever you want and off you go into your life. In the pilot area, we're going to change that so that the equity stake stays in the public sector for that house. So, when you sell, you sell your bit of it and then somebody else can come in and take advantage of that house, to see whether that keeps those houses in circulation for local people in a better way, and that's part of the pilot approach to see whether it works or not. If it does work, then we can look at extending it elsewhere and if it doesn't then we can look to see what else we can do. We're also looking to see what we can do with lenders, including the community bank and other lenders who've been very helpful, to see what we can do to assist people to get assisted mortgages using rental records as proof of affordability.
In terms of rent controls, we have, as part of the co-operation agreement, agreed to look at a White Paper on how that would work; we will want to do a consultation on that and make sure that there aren't any unintended consequences. In particular, I'd be concerned that private sector landlords would not then bring their houses up to the standard that we expect them to be, because they wouldn't be getting the income from that. So, we just need to be careful that we do the right thing for our tenants and we do the right thing for our housing stock, and our landlords, of course. I'm very keen to offer landlords a scheme that allows the Government to bring their homes up to standard, whilst allowing us to give much longer term rental agreements to tenants in those houses, and then give back the house to the landlord after a long period. That way, we keep the houses in the rental sector and we bring them up to standard. I fear that many good private sector landlords just don't have the wherewithal to bring their houses up to standard. So, one of the things we'll be looking at is the interaction of all of these various things to see that we just hit the sweet spot where we get the right level of investment and we get the right amount of security of tenure for the tenants.

And finally, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Perhaps I should start, given the Minister's comments, by declaring that, in my previous employment working for a building society, I worked with Tai Cymru to introduce a number of low-cost home ownershipschemes in Wales.
But last Friday, I visited Penmachno in Conwy with the rural futures programme funded by the National Lottery Community Fund. Whilst there, local residents showed me the number of properties in the town centre that were now Airbnb properties—they looked in very good condition, but nearly all of them were empty—that were previously occupied by local people. They presented me with a detailed submission with evidence, and asked me if I could hand this to you personally. Could I arrange to hand this to you or one of your officials?

Julie James AC: Yes, I'd be delighted to do that. We're looking for those kinds of enterprising schemes to see what we can do to bring houses both up to standard and back into beneficial use, so I'd be delighted to do that, Mark.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you.

I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language: The Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan

The next item, therefore, is the statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language on the Welsh language communities housing plan. I call on the Minister to make his statement—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd.Ensuring that local people can afford to live in the communities in which they grew up, and maintaining the vitality of Welsh as a thriving community language, are both key strategic goals for the Welsh Government.
The Minister for Climate Change, Julie James, has just outlined a number of key interventions that we intend to make on second homes and affordability. She reiterated our determination to support our communities and to see them thrive. Today, I want to outline a critical and complementary element of this work, which is the development of a Welsh language communities housing plan, which is also a key programme for government commitment.

Jeremy Miles AC: Large numbers of second homes and holiday lets have provoked strong feelings in some communities across Wales for some years now. In these communities, there is often a sense of injustice that people are priced out of the local housing market by those purchasing second homes or short-term holiday accommodation. We are determined to tackle this issue.
We are aware of the challenges being faced, and we've already made clear strides towards addressing them. On 6 July, my colleague the Minister for Climate Change set out our ambition to address issues relating to second home ownership, and her announcement today sets out how the issues of tax, planning and affordability will be tackled.
Alongside this, for those communities in which Welsh is widely spoken in the community, our Welsh language communities housing plan will play a crucial part in our response. We will develop a package of interventions that intertwines with the national approaches in order to support and protect Welsh-speaking communities.
'Cymraeg 2050: A million Welsh speakers' acknowledges the importance of these communities as places that facilitate the use of the language in every aspect of life. We need, therefore, careful economic, community and linguistic planning to enable Welsh-speaking communities to be economically and linguistically viable. People, especially our young people, must be able to afford to live, work and make a valuable contribution within these Welsh-speaking communities.
This consultation explores how the collective package of interventions, including those being trialled in Dwyfor, could be complemented at a community level to support and protect the Welsh language, while avoiding unintended consequences. It seeks views on what additional initiatives are needed to ensure that people, especially young people, can afford to live and work in our Welsh-speaking communities. Social justice is at the heart of our proposed interventions. Some of the interventions proposed in this consultation may also benefit from being included in the Dwyfor trial.
The consultation document proposes a number of measures and seeks views on them. Those measures are as follows. First, we propose to provide support for community-led co-operative and social enterprises. Second, we propose to establish a pilot project on community-owned social businesses in the tourism sector. Third, we propose to establish an estate agent steering group to consider possible projects and research regarding local housing markets.
Fourth, we propose to explore a voluntary fair chance scheme, so that properties are available on the market for a limited time to local people only. Fifth, we propose to establish a network of cultural ambassadors to engage at community level to support social cohesion and gain a better understanding by all of our culture, Welsh language and heritage.
Sixth, we propose to establish a commission on Welsh language communities to better understand the challenges facing Welsh-speaking communities within the context of the linguistic, economic and social changes as a result of COVID-19 and Brexit. It will work to develop a model that will help to identify areas of particular linguistic sensitivity, where tailored policy interventions can be applied.
Seventh, we propose to work with local authority leaders to strengthen the link between the economy, housing and Welsh language by enhancing the work of the economy and Welsh language round-table to include housing and a role for overseeing the progress of the Welsh language communities housing plan. And finally, we propose to explore new ways of safeguarding and promoting Welsh language place names.
Now, there are opportunities for communities here to lead some of these interventions, and we certainly want to provide them with the necessary tools to empower, encourage and facilitate community participation. Co-operatives and social enterprises are already an important part of the social and economic landscape in Wales. We want to explore ways of encouraging communities to lead in small-scale housing development, as well as establish social businesses that ensure that communities that risk losing valuable services are able to safeguard and take control of their future.
There are no easy answers. But I'm confident that the interventions proposed today will help us to ensure that people in Welsh-speaking communities can afford to live in the communities in which they grew up.
This is a complex area, and there will be a range of views on how the Welsh Government should respond. Therefore, we encourage everyone in the communities affected, the length and breadth of Wales, to respond to this consultation, whether they run businesses in these areas, live in these areas, own property, or deliver public services—to respond to this consultation and help shape our Welsh-language communities housing plan.
And as the Minister for Climate Change has just said, this is an area covered by the co-operation agreement that the First Minister announced yesterday, so I look forward to having further discussions with the designated Plaid Cymru Member as we work together to respond to this very important issue.
We will continue to develop and explore all options available to ensure that our Welsh-speaking communities thrive.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you for the opportunity to read the statement before hand, and I'd like to declare a personal interest in this issue.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Today’s statement was previously scheduled for last week, however it was delayed. It’s now evident from today’s statement that we were in fact waiting on the final details of the Labour/Plaid Cymru coalition before you made any formal announcement in relation to your Welsh language communities housing plan policy.
There is a unique problem in certain areas of Wales where local people are unable to buy homes in the areas in which they grew up. This is understood by all sides of the Chamber, despite what the climate change Minister said earlier. With this come concerns on the impact on the Welsh language and culture.
Firstly, I welcome the consultation, as it provides an opportunity for all to submit their thoughts. Everyone in these communities has a right to an opinion and a right to express it, and I hope the consultation will provide a wide range of answers and scenarios to ensure that future policy is of benefit.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Home building across Wales hasn't kept up with demand. Although the Government promises to build 20,000 low-carbon homes, from what I see, it doesn't note where in Wales these new homes will be built. We need to build homes where there is demand for them, not where it's easier to do it.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I would also point out that, throughout Wales, there exist more empty properties than second homes, and so I would be interested in knowing what the Minister and his Cabinet colleagues plan to do in addressing these issues. What will be done to get these properties back into use, allowing more people to have a home? Properties that are permanently empty 24/7 and that are not adequately maintained can have an impact on a local area, but equally they can help aid the solution to this very discussion we’re having this afternoon. I fear this solution has, perhaps, fallen under the radar, and so is one that requires greater debate and further focus.
There is also evidence in areas where second home premiums have been added to council tax that second home owners are flipping their properties over and registering them as self-catering units, thus avoiding the need to pay higher taxes, and sometimes meaning they pay no rates at all. Strengthening the eligibility criteria to stop this from happening must be a priority. Genuine self-catering businesses would welcome the removal of this unscrupulous behaviour by some second-home owners. Tourism mustn’t be seen as the enemy, but rather a key addition to our economy. Our rich culture, beautiful landscapes and warm welcome see people visit Wales, supporting jobs and livelihoods.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Over the past 18 months, working patterns have changed, with many people returning to those areas where they grew up, and, as we transfer out of the pandemic, it's unlikely that we will return to the traditional forms of working at an office desk. There are examples of young professionals returning to those areas in which they grew up to continue with their city jobs from the comfort of their own homes, not unlike those Members of this Chamber who choose to attend Plenary meetings via Zoom. Often, these young professionals can return with the Welsh language and children who would attend local schools. We need to focus on improving work opportunities for young people in traditionally Welsh-speaking areas.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Another issue I’ve raised in this Chamber is the buying of Welsh farmland for tree planting by organisations and businesses from outside of Wales. Therefore, I would welcome it if the community-led co-operatives and social enterprises element could be extended to include agricultural land. Agriculture has a higher percentage of Welsh speakers than other industries, and supporting that industry, ensuring the local community has the opportunity to purchase food-producing land and protect it, will naturally help protect the language in these areas, as agriculture supports approximately three times as many jobs as the forestry industry, for example.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Minister, in conclusion, ensuring that rural Wales has a sufficient number of homes and quality jobs for local people, and that there is support for the Welsh language and culture, is a challenge, and we need to tackle that challenge. I very much hope that the responses to the consultation will provide a long-term strategy to ensure that we're not talking about this issue in years to come. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: May I thank the Member for the questions in his contribution? In terms of the questions on affordability and housing use, the climate change Minister has had an opportunity to listen to your questions. She responded to some of them in her earlier statement, but the questions have been very useful, so thank you very much for them.
In terms of some of the more specific issues in my statement, in terms of the importance of tourism, I'm sure he'll welcome the work that we outline in the consultation document with regard to supporting short-term holiday let businesses to be able to reinvest to ensure that there's additional stock available to local communities on a social basis, to contribute to the tourism landscape and to provide economic opportunity locally to ensure that there is social use of that resource.
I agree entirely with him about what he said about employment opportunities in the local economy. That's one of the objectives at the heart of supporting social enterprises and co-operative companies, including in the areas of work that he mentioned in his contribution. There are several examples across Wales, such as Cwmni Bro Ffestiniog, Partneriaeth Ogwen and Galeri in Caernarfon, which are co-operatives that enable employment locally, but also use of the Welsh language in everything that they do, and that contributes to the local economy.
In terms of the final point that he raised with regard to land use, I'm aware that the climate change Minister is looking at that issue at the moment in terms of planning.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much, Minister, for this statement. I warmly welcome the statement. And as has been said by Mabon ap Gwynfor, I am very pleased to see that so many exciting and crucial policies for our Welsh-speaking communities have been included in the agreement between us as two parties.
I welcome the ambitious aims and objectives outlined in this statement today, and I look forward to working with you on these important issues in order to create a better Wales, where the Welsh language and our culture can prosper and where Welsh language communities are supported and safeguarded, and where the lives of people will improve in general terms.
I certainly welcome the ambition of the various policies outlined, and language campaigners, me among them, along with Plaid Cymru, have been fighting for a long time—over decades, indeed—to try and tackle the problem of housing, and second homes particularly, in our Welsh-speaking communities, and the principle that has been acknowledged by the Minister for Climate Change, and yourself in this statement—the important principle that local people should be able to afford to live in the communities in which they grew up.
I'm pleased that this is a clear statement from you as a Government, although I do fear that the statement and the implementation that will follow, hopefully, is a little too late in the day for some of those communities that have already been lost in terms of the very high number of second homes and the number of individuals who have suffered as a result of that. But we are here to deliver the strategic aims of 'Cymraeg 2050', and what's important, of course, is to see how housing policy, planning policy and Welsh language policy can dovetail in a strategy that is positive and beneficial. And, of course, part of the solution to the problem of trying to retain young people in their communities is, yes, housing, but also strengthening the local economy, so that people can find work in those areas, make a meaningful and considered contribution to their local communities and make a good living in the areas of their choice. The old Cymdeithas yr Iaith slogan of many years ago comes to mind: 'Tai a gwaith i gadw'r iaith'—housing and work to save the language.
So, specifically in terms of questions to you. You've placed great emphasis on housing and strengthening the economy, so, in that regard, can you explain exactly what you have in mind in terms of strengthening the economy and securing housing for local people? What particular plans do you have to tackle those issues? And in terms of housing developments, this is a sensitive issue also, because housing developments need to happen where there is demand for that housing. Very often, these developments are built at the outskirts of our towns, and that means that these developments are a long way from important services, a long way from schools, from public transport provision and even access to jobs, and, very often, these housing developments don't include enough affordable housing. I want to echo one point that's been made by the Conservatives already, namely that we need more of an emphasis on bringing empty homes back into use. So, will you as Minister outline how your Government intends to ensure that new homes meet local needs, particularly in Welsh-speaking areas, and how new housing and the planning process can lead to better outcomes for the language and young Welsh speakers? And also, what are the responsibilities of housing associations in terms of their letting policies in terms of safeguarding Welsh-speaking communities?
As I said, in general terms I welcome the diverse policy solutions that we've heard about already, but, despite how ambitious some of these measures appear to be, I would like a little more detail, first of all in terms of providing support to social enterprises and community co-operative businesses—well, to do what and what are their purpose? The pilot project in terms of the tourism sector: what's the model you're going to use there, what's the role of the cultural ambassadors and who will they be accountable to? The establishment of a commission: what does that mean, is that a task and finish group or a standing body? And also the economy and language round-table: I have been part of that since the outset, and I think we do need to now make progress and see planning for particular actions to be taken.
And to conclude, Llywydd, if I may, in order to deliver these objectives, we need funding and resources, of course. So, could you give us further details on what financial support and what expertise can be provided by Government in order to put these measures in places? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you to the Member for the variety of questions in his contribution. In terms of the detail of the scheme, we've published a consultation document today that answers several of the questions that the Member has asked—important questions on the detail regarding our intentions in relation to the eight measures that I outlined. So, I would recommend that anybody who has an interest in the detail of the proposal should look at that document.
But, just to give a flavour of what we have in mind, in terms of the work on local housing and ensuring that there is access to the housing market and homes for local people, on top of what the Minister for Climate Change has already stated, one of the things that we would want to do is work with the local housing associations, which the Member mentioned in his question, to look at co-operative housing models, or housing models that have been led by the community, to look at ways of meeting local need. This, of course, is an element that already exists in several of our communities, but there is more support and more that we can do in that specific area.
With regard to opportunities in the private market, this, of course, is more difficult in terms of economic interventions. The planning interventions and so on are as the Minister for Climate Change has already outlined. We hope, with the estate agents steering group, that we can develop relationships and build on what already exists in terms of auctioneers and local estate agents and Welsh-speaking communities—work has already been done with them in several communities, good work, to increase awareness of local culture and the importance of the Welsh language locally—and build on that to introduce a fair opportunity for local people who want to buy and rent, and an opportunity for them to have access to the market before those opportunities are shared more widely. Perhaps that's something that needs to be trialled to see how that can work practically.
And to return to the point on buying property by co-operatives and local housing associations and so on, perhaps a few weeks would be enough for those companies to be able to prepare a financial package to buy some of these homes for social purposes as well.
He mentioned the work being done by the round-table. One of the annexes to the consultation document outlines what the round-table has already recommended. A great deal of those recommendations are either under way or being developed at the moment, but, as we've already heard, we need to seek those opportunities, and we've seen some of those with Arfor as well—people receiving financial support to establish businesses in those localities where the Welsh language is spoken. So, that evaluation is happening currently. I'm sure that opportunities will arise from that evaluation to expand that in more communities as well.

John Griffiths, Chair of the housing committee.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I'm speaking as Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee. Thank you very much to the Minister for his statement.

John Griffiths AC: As I outlined earlier, our committee is currently looking at second homes and will be looking at the Welsh Government's response to Dr Brooks's report on whether the steps taken are appropriate ones. Of course, Dr Brooks looked at the future of Welsh as a community language, and he found that the issue of second homes was affecting what he described, I think, as
'the territorial "core" of traditional Welsh-speaking Wales'.
Dr Brooks said that new policies will be required in a range of areas, including but not confined to second homes, if Welsh-speaking communities are to be stabilised over the next few decades. So, I wonder if the Minister could outline how Dr Brooks's work has shaped this plan.
The impact on the Welsh language and Welsh-speaking communities is a very important aspect for my committee to take into account when considering policies relating to second homes, and, as a committee, we're very mindful of that and will be ensuring that we explore this crucial element as we take forward our work. The language must thrive across Wales, and policies and approaches have to safeguard that.
Dr Brooks recommended the establishment of a commission to make recommendations regarding the future of the Welsh language as a community language, and I thank the Minister for the update on the establishment of a commission. The committee will gather views from stakeholders on that matter through the inquiry.
I'd just like to conclude by saying that, obviously, this issue does cut across many different areas, including the portfolios of different Welsh Government Ministers, and we do need a holistic approach, as always, when we're dealing with complex and difficult issues, and I wonder if the Minister could explain how he's worked with other Welsh Government Ministers across portfolios in developing this plan. Just finally, as a committee, we look forward to exploring these issues with stakeholders and also the Minister as well, of course, and we will invite him to give evidence next year. Diolch yn fawr.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, thank you to the Member for those questions. I'd be very happy, of course, to collaborate with him and his committee to develop the proposals that are in the package that is being consulted on today. In terms of the influence of Dr Brooks's work on this plan and on the scheme that the climate change Minister has outlined today, I think it's at the heart of the vision that is here. It's had a significant impact on what we are announcing. Examples of that are the importance, which the Member may have heard, of ensuring that we have a tourism sector that is sustainable and that allows activity and economic opportunities locally, the importance of the local economy more widely, and that's at the heart of what we are proposing in terms of social enterprises and co-operatives.
But specifically in terms of the commission's work—and with apologies to Cefin Campbell, I didn't respond to that part of his question—we're not talking about a commission that is a statutory body being established independently of Government. We have an opportunity for the commission to look at empirical evidence, if you will, that will be the basis of our understanding of the impact of socioeconomic changes on our Welsh-speaking communities, but also to create the basis of evidence for this idea of areas of interest and significant sensitivity with regard to the Welsh language. And that, perhaps, will provide an opportunity for us to tailor a package of further interventions in future specifically for those communities that are particularly sensitive with regard to the future prosperity of the Welsh language in those communities.
The Member makes a very important point in terms of how different elements of Government collaborate. This is a priority that touches almost all parts of the range of Government responsibilities. For example, the round-table already touches on the language, the economy and now, from now on, the question of housing as well. So, the Ministers who have an interest and a responsibility in all of those particular areas have a role with regard to the work of the round-table. And there's a cross-party group that's been working on some of the issues, and the climate change Minister and myself, the finance Minister and the economy Minister have occasionally been part of that forum so that we can make a joint contribution to meeting this important aim.

And finally, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: I'm seeking some clarity, Minister. You mentioned in the statement that—one of the things you listed was new ways of raising awareness of Welsh language place names and promoting them. Now, raising awareness, not safeguarding. But, I note in the English translation that we received on e-mail—clearly, I wasn't listening to the interpretation, but in the English translation of the statement via e-mail, it mentions 'safeguarding'. That's the term used in the English version. Of course, safeguarding is different to raising awareness, isn't it? I'm sure that you would agree that replacing Welsh language place names is an insult to our identity as a nation and a loss to our culture and our history. So, I just wanted some clarity on that particular point. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you. Well, there is no difference from my point of view. The substance is that we want to safeguard place names. I refer the Member to page 14 of the consultation document, which outlines the specific steps we have in mind.

I thank the Minister.

7. The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 20) Regulations 2021

The next item is the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 20) Regulations 2021, and I call on the health Minister to move the motion. Eluned Morgan.

Motion NDM7838 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 20) Regulations 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laidin the Table Office on 29 October 2021.

Motion moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I move the motion before us.
The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) Regulations 2020 put in place the legislative framework for the alert levels described in the coronavirus control plan. In the autumn and winter update of this plan, which we published on 8 October, we set out what we expect to keep as a baseline measure in place over the autumn and the winter. Some of the key defences that will keep us safe over winter are in the regulations. They include the fact that businesses must carry out a COVID risk assessment and put in place reasonable measures to minimise risks; wearing face coverings in indoor public places; the requirement to isolate after a positive test; the use of the NHS COVID pass to gain entry to certain events and venues.
The current regulations expire on 26 November. On 29 October, draft amended regulations were laid that will extend the expiry of the regulations for a further three months to 25 February, which will take us through to the beginning of spring. As has been the case since the beginning of the pandemic, the regulations will be reviewed every three weeks and measures that are no longer proportionate will be removed.
Separate legislation, the functions of local authorities regulations, confers powers on local authorities in Wales to respond to serious and imminent threats posed by coronavirus in their areas. This is also due to expire on 26 November and the draft amended regulations also extend the expiry date of these regulations until 25 February. The functions of local authorities regulations are designed to do three things if localities are faced with a serious coronavirus outbreak: firstly, they empower local authorities to close or impose restrictions on specific premises or public places; secondly, they allow them to stop events from taking place or impose requirements on them; and thirdly, they permit local authorities, national parks and Natural Resources Wales to close public paths and restrict access to land.
Llywydd, let me be clear: as we move into winter, the measures in the regulations will help us keep Wales safe and take further action if necessary at a local level. I'm very pleased we have the opportunity to debate this motion today, and I look forward to hearing and responding to Members' contributions. I urge Members to support the motion.

Russell George AC: Minister, we thank you for your statement today and the regulations you've set out. We won't be, as Welsh Conservatives, supporting these regulations today. I would point out to the Minister and Members that we've supported approximately 90 per cent of the Welsh Government's COVID regulations because we accept and agree that they're in place for good reasons in terms of keeping the people of Wales safe. Many of the aspects that you've set out in these regulations today we do agree with; however, there are two particular reasons why we won't support the regulations today. The first is that we can't support the extension of COVID passes for the reasons I've previously set out. There's the ethical, equality and other negative ramifications of COVID passes; we simply believe that they outweigh any benefit. And when I say 'benefit', we've yet to see the evidence of any benefit. Of course, I've already asked questions on this today, but we'd like to see the evidence that sits behind the COVID passes, and the benefits that they bring. In terms of the second point, I would state that we can't support the regulations today because the regulations provide an extension of a further three months of all COVID restrictions, including COVID passes, and I believe that the Government should be bringing forward the regulations on a case-by-case basis so we can discuss these here in this Chamber. As the Minister responds to my comments, I'd be grateful if the Minister could respond to that specific point. Diolch yn fawr.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. Extending the regulations until the end of February is the aim here and we will certainly be supporting these regulations. I'm surprised to hear the comment made by the Conservatives that they don't now support having any restrictions in place, to all intents and purposes, because this is the framework, and it's within that framework that the regulations are imposed. Plaid Cymru has made it clear throughout the pandemic that we support taking action on the basis of evidence, supporting steps that could help to restrict the transmission of the virus and keeping the people of Wales safe. And yes, for all of us in every party, that's meant very difficult decisions being made over the past year and nine months.
I make the point once again here, as I've made several times before, that we need to work more intensively on communicating the rationale, yes, behind the regulations, but also the important steps that people need to take to adhere to the regulations, including those fundamental things. The more people who can work from home, the more people who can use facial coverings in busy indoor spaces and ensure that there is fresh air around them, the more hope there is that we can limit the transmission of the virus. I think that there is evidence of where the message is perhaps being lost, the message is being diluted, so I would encourage the Government to push that particular point. Of course, these regulations need to go hand in hand at the same time as work to strengthen the health service.
I will make this point to close: with such great pressure, and growing pressure, on the health service as we go into the dark days of winter, we do need to avoid being caught in a vicious circle, an endless circle, where waiting times deteriorate. What I see is short-term steps being taken by the Government, yes, but we need to see that change in the health landscape that will ensure that we have health and care services that are more sustainable for the long term. Yes, it's about battling against this virus that is such a threat within our communities, but do keep an eye on that long-term view, and make changes now that will give us those robust services and more resilient services for the coming years.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Minister for the statement today, and I'll be supporting these. These are difficult decisions, but we have to acknowledge as well that they are temporary but emergency measures, and their purpose is not only to protect public health, but also, indeed, to try and keep businesses open with the minimum of measures that will protect the public health not only of their customers, but also of their staff as well in those places of work, who do not have a choice. So, it's very difficult, we hope they're as temporary as can be, but we need to get through this winter as well.
I like to bring unusual things in front of the Minister, and I've got an unusual one today. I'm not asking her to intervene or to cast judgment; I just ask her to keep open her diary, because I might need to come back. In the middle of October, two very good football clubs in my area, very good football clubs that not only have adult teams, but also have extensive junior teams as well, were due to play on a Saturday morning in the middle of October. The team was advised on that very morning—that morning—that there were two players that had tested positive. By the end of two or three days later it was seven players. They consulted with the local authority to say, 'What should we do?' The local authority said, 'Do not play the game'. They did not play the game. They have been fined £100 and deducted three points for not playing the game. They have an appeal next week, and we have to leave this proceed, so do not intervene in this yet, Minister. But could she simply say that, in the generality of my enquiry, if a club is advised by local COVID enforcement officers that they should not proceed because some of the team have tested positive, that's exactly the guidance that they should follow, and not risk either their own players, the participants, the people watching on the field or the other team indeed—that they should not play, and play another day instead?

James Evans MS: Minister, with regard to COVID passes in Wales, the Cabinet must have a threshold and parameters as to when they are imposed on certain venues. What I specifically want to know, Minister, is: what level does COVID-19 have to be at in Wales to get COVID passes repealed? Because none of this legislation or rules or passes that are brought in are here to stay indefinitely. So, I think it's very important for the public to know at what level will COVID passes be repealed in Wales, because I think that's vitally important information that the public needs to know. Diolch, Llywydd.

The Minister now to reply to the debate.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I am grateful to Members for their contribution to this debate. I think it is important that I emphasise once again that, unfortunately, coronavirus has not disappeared. The situation in Wales remains serious, with case rates that are far too high. The pandemic continues to put significant pressure on our health services.

Eluned Morgan AC: I'm very disappointed to hear that the Conservatives won't be supporting these regulations. We are at a situation in Wales where we have over 500 cases per 100,000. That is a very, very high level of cases within our communities and I think it's frankly irresponsible not to take this situation seriously. We have put these protections in place in order to protect the public. We are going into a very, very difficult time with the winter pressures, and certainly it is disappointing to see that. I can assure you that we took very seriously all of the ethical, legal and practical issues relating to the introduction of COVID passes into consideration before we not only introduced them, but thought of extending them to cinemas. As I quoted to you earlier, I've had a very interesting message from a cinema saying that since we've brought in the COVID pass, the sales have gone through the roof in his particular cinema, because customers feel safer because they're aware that other people are protected who are sitting near them. So, just to be clear—

Russell George AC: Will you take an intervention?

You can take it if you want to.

Eluned Morgan AC: I'm happy to take an intervention.

Russell George AC: Thank you for giving way. I'm disappointed that you feel that it's irresponsible that we're not supporting these regulations today, but you yourself and the First Minister said that when it came to the introduction of COVID passes, they were finely balanced decisions that needed to be taken in terms of ethical ramifications. So, surely you accept that we're just taking a different judgment call in those finely balanced decisions that you yourself mentioned.

Eluned Morgan AC: I'm sure Russell is aware that these regulations don't just apply to cinemas; they also apply to the broader regulations surrounding all of the other measures that we have in place, including wearing face coverings in public places, working from home and all of those other things. So, I think as we enter the winter months, it is really important when we see cases surging across the continent that this is not the time to dismantle the provisions that we have. [Interruption.] Yes.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I genuinely do appreciate the point that has just been made by Russell that, sometimes, these are finely balanced and they're taken in the round of a range of measures. But my point would simply be, Russell and Minister, that if it's a fine balance, that fine balance should be then exercised in the interests of public health and safety, and avoiding what we're seeing happening now on the continent.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I think one of the key things to remember in terms of what we're discussing here today—it's a very legal discussion that we're participating in here—is that part of it is about making sure that, actually, these restrictions are not in place indefinitely. We have a process where these are revised, but there is effectively a sunset clause built into these regulations. So, these are not things that will continue for the long term, but, of course, we do have a regular rhythm every 21 days of reassessing the situation.

Eluned Morgan AC: I'd like to thank Rhun for his commitment in supporting these new regulations. You're right that the landscape is very important. Ten per cent of the cases in hospital today are COVID related, and, of course, we're already committed to spending £0.25 billion in ensuring that services recover post COVID. So, I hope that we can actually look at those cases of people who have been waiting a very long time for their treatments and their operations and so on.

Eluned Morgan AC: Huw, it's always a joy to hear your special cases, and particularly a joy to hear this one, which is rather quirky. But I am sure, if I am not to intervene at this point, I think speaking in general terms, if people have been advised by public health experts not to do a particular thing, I think they would be well advised to be in a situation where they heeded that advice, and that they would have to be very brave if people were to impose a fine on people were that situation not to have been heeded. Diolch yn fawr i chi i gyd.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Legislative Consent Motion on the Rating (Coronavirus) and Directors Disqualifications (Dissolved Companies) Bill

Item 8 is next, and this is a legislative consent motion on the Rating (Coronavirus) and Directors Disqualifications (Dissolved Companies) Bill. I call on the Minister for finance to move the motion—Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM7837 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Rating (Coronavirus) and Directors Disqualification (Dissolved Companies) Bill, in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. I am very grateful to both the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee for considering and reporting on the memorandum. Neither committee identified an impediment to the Senedd agreeing to the legislative consent motion. I note the helpful points raised by both committees, and I've written to Members prior to today's debate providing clarification on the matters that were raised.
The UK Government introduced the Rating (Coronavirus) and Directors Disqualifications (Dissolved Companies) Bill on 12 May to provide that matters attributable to COVID-19 could not be considered for the purpose of non-domestic rates appeals citing a material change of circumstances. Provisions in the Bill applying to Wales will prevent such appeals, both prospectively and retrospectively, with immediate effect from the date of Royal Assent. On 1 November, I laid the Valuation for Rating (Wales) (Coronavirus) Regulations 2021, which commenced later that day. Those regulations have the effect of prospectively preventing material change of circumstances appeals citing COVID-19 related matters. The Bill acts as a suitable vehicle to prevent such appeals, both prospectively and retrospectively. The provisions in the Bill supersede the regulations, and I intend to revoke the regulations, following the passage of the Bill, to ensure legislative clarity. The primary reason for limiting appeals of this kind is that the wider economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic will be considered as part of the next non-domestic rates revaluation in April 2023. In the interim, the Welsh Government has provided an extensive package of support to businesses and other rate payers to help them through the pandemic.
The Bill also provides clarity for rate payers in Wales during these uncertain times. I believe these provisions fall within the legislative competence of this Senedd. However, I am content that these provisions should be made in a UK Bill. There is an imminent risk to public finances that requires expedient action to clarify the situation. This could not be effected through primary legislation in this Senedd within the required timescale. This is a short Bill to effect a change that provides certainty within the non-domestic rating appeal system and for local government funding in Wales, and I ask the Senedd to approve this legislative consent motion.

I now call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd.
We reported on the memorandum last week. We also reported on the Valuation for Rating (Wales) (Coronavirus) Regulations 2021, which are also relevant to this afternoon’s debate.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: My thanks, at the opening, to my fellow committee members, and our clerking team as well, for their diligence and scrutiny. We may be few, but we are mighty in our deliberations.
Llywydd, the memorandum that was laid before the Senedd was, in our view, poorly drafted. The Bill that was originally introduced to the UK Parliament was indeed an England-only Bill, and the Minister petitioned the UK Government, we understand, and asked for the Bill's application to be extended to Wales. Now, for us, the key fact is that this is not included in the explanatory memorandum. The Minister told us that this was because it was background information and, by implication, did not need to be included, but as a committee, Minister, we respectfully but very strongly disagree, because in the interests of openness and transparency of Government decision making, particularly in aspects like this where we have England-and-Wales legislation, it is important. It's a pertinent issue to be drawn to the attention of the Senedd as part of its consideration on the matter of consent. And in such circumstances where the timescales may prevent effective scrutiny by Senedd committees, the Senedd would be asked to consider and vote without being in full receipt of all the facts. Such circumstances we do not think are acceptable, and we'd like to see improvement in this, so that the explanatory memorandum on this or on other LCMs brought forward are more fulsome and entire and complete.
We asked the Minister to explain to Senedd Members how, when, and why the request was put in that the England-only Bill was amended so that its application was extended to Wales. We note the explanation in the opening remarks, but again we just think there could be more clarity, a more fulsome explanation, so that Senedd Members here can consider this, not simply our committee.
Now, at this point I'd also like to highlight that the Minister has not formally responded to our report. We recognise that the Minister sent a letter out to all Members yesterday, which indeed addressed two specific recommendations in our report. However, Minister, our committee must offer a gentle reminder that a letter from the Minister is not a formal Welsh Government response to the report of a Senedd committee.
So, with regard to the Minister's reasons for making provision for Wales in the Bill, we've got two primary concerns. Firstly, the memorandum states that the Bill, and I quote,
'would ensure that the treatment of appeals in Wales aligns with that in England'.
In our view,as a committee, this reasoning may well imply that the position for England is the norm and the default position. We believe that the guiding principle should be a solution that meets the needs of those in Wales affected by the legislation, and we'd be happy to hear from the Minister that this is not the intention, whether implied or more explicit, of Welsh Government. Secondly, whilst we acknowledge the Minister's view that, by making provision for Wales in the Bill, in quotes,
'Welsh ratepayers would be treated in a consistent manner',
it is unclear whether the Minister would, and should, make exactly the same provision for Welsh ratepayers through a Welsh Bill given that such provisions have not been tested with these stakeholders.
I'd like to briefly discuss the regulations I mentioned at the start of my contribution, particularly as they are subject to the negative procedure and will not naturally find themselves before this Chamber. I'm grateful to the Minister for agreeing to our recommendation that these regulations were mentioned today. Although not mentioned in the memorandum, we were aware of a statement issued by the Minister in July in which she said that regulations would be forthcoming that will have a similar effect to the provisions to be included in the UK Bill until such time as the Bill becomes law. That's quite clear. On 19 October, we wrote to the Minister to ask about their whereabouts. Now, these regulations were eventually laid before the Senedd at 9.00 a.m. on 1 November and they came into force at 6.00 p.m. on the same day. Now, that is a somewhat extreme example of a breach of the 21-day rule, especially as the Welsh Government, we understand, knew that they wanted to make these regulations more than three months before.
We wrote separately to the Minister on these regulations, and the Minister did respond over the weekend, for which we are very grateful. However, Minister, I would simply say that the committee feels that noting our concerns is not a wholly satisfactory response; we would've liked a more fulsome explanation, which we think would have been more appropriate and helpful. The Minister's letter to us also highlights some other issues that we may pursue with her further.
Llywydd, my apologies for going slightly over, but finally, on inter-governmental working, the Minister told us that the Bill was introduced into the UK Parliament without prior discussion with the Welsh Government as to whether provisions for Wales should be included. This is very concerning in and of itself. It raises an important point. Given that the UK Government acknowledges that this matter is fully devolved, it is unclear whether the Minister is suggesting that the UK Government should now routinely consult the Welsh Government to see whether it wants legislative provisions in a UK Bill. Such a position would, in our committee's view, be unsatisfactory. Diolch, Llywydd.

Rhys ab Owen AS: May I start by saying that I agree entirely with the comments made by the committee Chair? And I thank him and the clerking team for all the work that they do. May I also say that this is a concern not only for your department, Minister, but for many other departments within Government? And I and other members of the committee have huge concerns about the LCM process as it undermines us as an institution here in the Senedd. May I also start by echoing the comments made by the Chair that it's disappointing that we haven't received a formal response to the committee's report? This should have happened before today, and I do very much hope that we will receive a formal response in due time.
But, as so many LCMs appear before the sixth Senedd, not responding formally does nothing to promote real scrutiny in this place. I am truly concerned that there are too many LCMs being passed without sufficient scrutiny of the impact that they will have on the devolution settlement, and through that, on this institution itself. Certainly, we shouldn't expect Members to vote on LCMs without one of the committees scrutinising the Bill receiving a full response to its report.

Rhys ab Owen AS: The committee has asked a series of important questions, not to be awkward, Minister, not to ask questions for the sake of asking questions, but because that is the role of the committee, and it's the duty of the Minister to answer those questions, especially when using the LCM system that bypasses the full scrutiny of the Senedd.
The history of the Bill, as mentioned by the Chairman of the committee, is interesting to say the least. When the Bill was first introduced, it extended to England only. The Minister asked the UK Government to extend the Bill to Wales—a fact, as the Chairman said, not drawn attention to in the memorandum. Now, the UK Government acknowledged that this matter is fully devolved. But, the Welsh Government says, as a criticism, that the UK Government didn't consult with them before introducing the Bill. I'm sure you don't mean this, but this, Minister, seems to suggest that the UK Government should routinely ask the Welsh Government before introducing a Bill that extends only to England that is within the devolved Welsh powers. This approach is completely inconsistent with what the Counsel General has given us—the guidance as to when the LCM should be used. Really, it is completely inconsistent with devolution itself.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Why is the UK Government expected to consult with the Welsh Government in introducing a Bill that relates to England only, in an area that is devolved to Wales? It's the role of the Welsh Parliament to pass legislation in devolved areas. It's not the role of the Westminster Government to consult with the Welsh Government as to whether they want to include something in a Westminster Bill.

Rhys ab Owen AS: The Minister's comments about the Bill aligning with England further undermine devolution by suggesting, as the Chair mentioned, that following England is the norm. With the Westminster Government flexing its muscular unionism, with us here hearing, quite correctly, time after time, from Welsh Ministers of the impact that the Westminster Government is having on the devolution settlement, I cannot fathom that approach by the Welsh Government.This Government, the Welsh Government, won a Senedd election by showing the Welsh public that following England was not the norm, and that by doing things differently in Wales, things can be done better.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Welsh provisions have been added to this Bill without any opportunity for real scrutiny in this place. This also means that the Bill will not be bilingual, that it will not form a part of Welsh law—and in that regard, it is less accessible and confuses the devolved settlement further. It's also contrary to the Government's own principles.

Rhys ab Owen AS: In addition, the stopgap regulation laid on 1 November coming to force that very same day—. As the Chair said, we all appreciate that there need to be breaches of the 21-day rule. But, there are breaches and there are breaches—laid at 9 a.m. and enforced by 6 p.m. This was made over seven months after the regulation was introduced in England. This is not good law making, Minister. We can do better here in Wales. We must do better here in Wales.

Rhys ab Owen AS: In promoting the development of this institution in taking on more powers, one of the strongest arguments that we can make is that we can do things better here in Wales than is done in Westminster. This is not good practice in drafting law in Wales. And for those reasons, we, as Plaid Cymru, will not be voting in favour of this LCM. Thank you.

The Minister to reply to the debate—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I would just like to begin by correcting the Chair and the member of the committee. I did respond to the committee's correspondence, dated 16 November, with a letter on 20 November. We did have confirmation of receipt from the committee as well, so I'm not sure how that has not reached members of the committee.FootnoteLink
But, just for clarity, I did say in writing that, although non-domestic rates policy is devolved, there are elements of the rating system that, in practice, operate across Wales and England. Valuation and, in turn, the initial processing of appeals, falls under this categorisation, and the Valuation Office Agency is the body responsible for those matters across Wales and England.
The Welsh Government's intention in addressing this matter was to achieve a collaborative approach with that of the UK Government. We have made frequent calls for communication and co-operation in reaching a consensus on a suitable approach. Unfortunately, this cohesive approach has not proven possible, and the Welsh Government wasn't sighted—as we've discussed—on the UK Government's intentions until announcements had been made. In addition, the sharing of relevant data from the VOA has been limited, adversely impacting appropriate and timely policy development for Wales.
Welsh policy on devolved matters is set in Wales, although it is also recognised that the interconnected nature of certain policy and operational matters across Wales and England means that, for the sake of certainty, it is sometimes better to adopt an aligned approach, and, in this instance, given the impact on businesses and other ratepayers in both Wales and England, and the fact that subsequent business support is linked to the passing of the Rating (Coronavirus) and Directors Disqualification (Dissolved Companies) Bill, an aligned approach better enables the use of financial levers that are, to a lesser extent, within the Welsh Government’s devolved arsenal. So, that summarises what I said to the committee over the weekend, which did respond to the concerns of the committee, so perhaps that should be better taken up with the clerk of the committee.
But I just would finish by saying that the non-domestic rates system provides vital revenue for funding local government services, and clarity over the appeal system ensures certainly for public finances and for ratepayers. And we've sought to offset the negative impacts of the pandemic through our package of business support, and market conditions relating to these appeals will be considered as part—

Correction from the Minister for Finance and Local Government

Will you take an intervention, Minister, from Huw Irranca-Davies?

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, I will.
—as part of the 2023 revaluation.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Llywydd, thank you very much. A brief intervention, Minister. We will check the records of correspondence and whether the questions have been answered or not, and we’ll get back to you. If it’s an error on our part, we’ll take that on the chin, but we want to check that and come back so that the record is accurate. But we take the points made by the Minister, and, Llywydd, for accuracy of the record in this Senedd Chamber, we’ll come back if we need to correct anything.

Okay. Minister to continue.

Rebecca Evans AC: So, I would just conclude, Llywydd, by committing to continue to update Members on our ongoing work looking at the reforming of the non-domestic rates system here in Wales. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection. A slightly late objection, but it did arrive just in time. So, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Legislative Consent Motion on the Armed Forces Bill

Item 9 is the next item. This is the legislative consent motion on the Armed Forces Bill, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership to move the motion. Hannah Blythyn.

Motion NDM7836 Hannah Blythyn
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Armed Forces Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch. Llywydd. I move the motion today and will set out why I believe that the Senedd should support it. We’ve recently marked the remembrance period, as we do every year, to pay tribute those who’ve served in our armed forces, both past and present, and I know Members in this Chamber took part in a debate as well as attending services and events, as we always do, as I did in my own constituency. However, we all recognise that our armed forces community are not just active or visible during two weeks in November—they are serving throughout the year, their families are impacted throughout the year, and some of those who have served may need support throughout the year and for many years to come.
The armed forces covenant, implemented 10 years ago, has seen great strides forward in the support for our armed forces community. It’s helped increase awareness amongst our service providers of the issues facing the armed forces community and support that may be needed. It also developed and strengthened bespoke medical services, such as Veterans NHS Wales, and has seen new employment schemes so that our skilled forces personnel continue to contribute to our communities and economy. However, there is more that we can do to make sure the covenant principles of no disadvantage due to service and special consideration for those who have given the most are upheld. Too often, our armed forces community can still slip through the net. Often, it’s not because a service provider doesn’t care or doesn’t have the structures in place—it could simply be because of a lack of awareness or identification.
The Welsh Government is of the view that clause 8 of the Armed Forces Bill will help tackle these issues. A due-regard duty, along the lines of that in the Equality Act 2010, will increase awareness amongst service providers. Providers will need to demonstrate that they have considered the needs of the armed forces community, not necessarily to advantage them over other people, but to ensure that the unique sacrifices they have made, which may have affected their ability to access services, are considered.
Although I’m clear that clause 8 of the Bill relating to the covenant is within the Senedd’s competence, we are supporting a cross-UK Bill to ensure that there’s a joined-up approach to this element of armed forces support. We work closely with all UK nations and share best practice with them, and will continue to do so. Recent examples have included developing an employment toolkit for military spouses and partners with the Scottish Government.
Llywydd, I’d like to thank both the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Equality and Social Justice Committee for their scrutiny of the Bill, the legislative consent memorandum and supplementary legislative consent memorandum. I welcome the correspondence with the Chair of the equality committee and hope that I was able to provide the answers to the questions that were raised and which were published in the committee report. I also welcome the conclusions and recommendations of the legislation committee, and am happy to address many of their points now.
As the committee points out, the UK Government had originally indicated that they considered clause 8 would engage the LCM process, as corresponding provision could be made by the Senedd, then changed their position. Whilst the legal assessment of the UK Government is beyond our control, I wrote to the Minister, Leo Docherty, on 20 May to express my deep disappointment at this change in position and requested clarification of their reasoning. The Minister responded and explained that, after further legal analysis, their view had changed. My officials also raised the issue in meetings with the UK Government. Our assessments of the main areas of competence of the element of this Bill may indeed diverge, but they are both, however, committed to implementing the provisions.
We believe that the legislative consent of the Senedd is required, as the majority of issues relating to support of the armed forces community in Wales are in the areas of health, education and housing that are in the scope of the Bill are within competence. I therefore believe it's right for Members to have a chance to debate this Bill and LCM and to have their say.
Regarding our requested amendment for the consent of Welsh Ministers to be obtained prior to any changes to the guidance or regulations, it was also disappointing that the UK Government would not agree to this request. However, this is not surprising, given the difference in the legislative competence assessments of the Bill between the Welsh Government and UK legal teams. However, the Bill provides that the Secretary of State for Wales must consult the Welsh Ministers before issuing guidance that relates to devolved Welsh functions. In addition, before making any regulation to broaden the scope of due-regard duty to include other bodies or functions that are within the competence of the Senedd, the Bill provides that the Secretary of State for Wales must also consult the Welsh Ministers.
The UK Government has also stated that any such changes
'would only happen where there is benefit in doing so after consultation with key stakeholders, such as the Welsh Government, and after due Parliamentary process had been conducted'.
I have made it clear that I would expect any such proposals to change the guidance or scope of the Bill to be consulted on in detail with Welsh devolved Government and partners. The level of collaboration today on the statutory guidance supports my view that we are vital contributors in developing guidance that is useful to our partners in Wales.

I now call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. We considered the Welsh Government’s memoranda in relation to the Armed Forces Bill in September. In doing so, we noted that our predecessor committee in the fifth Senedd had scrutinised the Bill. Our report drew two conclusions and made one recommendation, and I thank the Deputy Minister for responding to our report ahead of this afternoon’s debate.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Again, my thanks to my committee colleagues and our clerks and the support team for their work on this as well.
Now, as the Deputy Minister has set out, clause 8 of the Bill makes provisions relating to the armed forces covenant by amending the Armed Forces Act 2016, and we noted the Welsh Government’s assessment that clause 8 of the Bill requires the Senedd’s consent.
We were particularly concerned to note, however, that the UK Government had changed its position on whether clause 8 relates to a devolved matter between the Bill’s introduction in the House of Commons on 26 January and its reintroduction on 12 May. And, further to that, no explanation had been provided.
We were also disappointed that, whilst the memorandum noted the UK Government’s change in position, there was no further assessment or detail provided with regards to a change of the Welsh Government’s view on this as well. So, our report therefore asked the Deputy Minister to address this matter, and we noted her response, which sets out both her engagement with the UK Government and the Welsh Government’s position. I welcome the information from the Deputy Minister, and we would respectfully, and we think helpfully, suggest that the level of detail that was provided subsequently could well have been included in the original memorandum, to make this information as accessible as possible as early as possible.
Now, as I've already mentioned, our predecessor committee also scrutinised this Bill. One of their recommendations at the time was that the Deputy Minister should pursue amendments to the Bill to the effect that the Secretary of State is required to obtain the consent of the Welsh Ministers before issuing or revising guidance and before making regulations under the new sections inserted by clause 8. And we welcome the fact that the Welsh Government did indeed pursue this recommendation, but we note as well that their request to the UK Government was rejected, as the Deputy Minister has laid out. In rejecting that request, the UK Government said that any such changes would, in quotes,
'only happen where there is benefit in doing so after consultation with key stakeholders, such as the Welsh Government'.
Now, in our view, this response does not demonstrate an understanding of the Welsh Government’s position as the elected Government in Wales. The Minister told us that whilst she is disappointed in the UK Government's adopted position, she considers, in balance, that the benefits outweigh any detriment that results from the UK Government's position, and so, Llywydd, in closing, I draw the Senedd's attention to these comments. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

There are no other speakers, therefore I call on the Deputy Minister to reply.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and can I thank the Chair of the committee for your contributions in the debate, and also the correspondence we've had on this matter? As I said in the opening remarks, much of your concerns and disappointment are shared by myself as well, and I certainly take the points that you made with regard to the level of detail provided subsequently, and that's certainly something that we can then take back as we move forward. But I welcome the points you made in closing, as I think we're clear that this is an important piece of legislation for our armed forces community and I believe it will help instil a more consistent approach and minimum standard of service delivery in Wales and across the UK, whilst complementing the already excellent work, and building on that, of our public and charity sector partners. So, I would encourage fellow Senedd Members to support this LCM.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. Debate: The Welsh Language Commissioner’s Annual Report 2020-21 and the Commissioner’s second 5-year report

The next item today is a debate on the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report for 2020-21, and the commissioner's second five-year report. I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language to move the motion. Jeremy Miles.

Motion NDM7835 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the Welsh Language Commissioner’s Annual Report (2020-21)
2. Notes the Welsh Language Commissioner's 5 year Report (2016-20).

Motion moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Welsh language belongs to each and every one of us here in the Senedd, in Government and, more importantly, everywhere in Wales. That's what I have emphasised since my appointment as Minister for our language, and that's what I'm emphasising today. It doesn't matter how much Welsh we speak and whatever our connection with the language has been, we all have a contribution to make. The Welsh language is my first language. I'm grateful to my parents for gifting me with that language, and being bilingual gives us two windows to view the world through. So, before going on to the core of this debate, I just want to set out my vision briefly for our language, and how I see my work as Minister for Welsh language.
I want more people to have what I had. I want more people to learn our language. I want to live as much of my life as possible through the medium of Welsh. You might think that there's nothing new in that, but, in the Welsh-speaking policy village, are we focused enough on language use? Do we avoid that because it's a little difficult, perhaps? I want more people to use our language, not just be able to speak it. So, language use is the key for me, and it's through the prism of language use that I see my work as Minister—use not just provision.
Back in July, I published a five-year 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy to ensure that that vision became a reality. I was looking towards the next five years of language policy, and we have some exciting plans in place, and more on those over coming months. But from time to time it's important to look back, and that's what we're doing today, and we do that looking back not just over the last year, but also the last five years, through the eyes of the Welsh Language Commissioner.
The recent time hasn't been easy for the commissioner. Like every one of us, the commissioner had to adapt to new ways of working because of COVID. But, in addition to that, the commissioner suffered a very unfortunate cyber attack, and the restoration work following that attack has been significant. We continue to work with the commissioner to help him with that work of restoring his systems following that cyber attack.
In October, the commissioner published his five-year report. The purpose of the report is to give an independent overview of the situation of our language, something that is crucially important as we work towards the target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, and to double the daily use of the Welsh language.
In his five-year report on the position of the Welsh language during that time, the commissioner focuses on the work of Government and sets us a number of challenges. And I always welcome considered challenges in all aspects of my work. Nobody has a monopoly on good ideas, and may I take this opportunity to thank all of the organisations and campaigners who have been working for the Welsh language in the period covered in that report?
Similar themes become apparent in both reports considered today,the annual report and the five-year report. For one thing, the commissioner asks us to bring more bodies and sectors under Welsh language standards. I want ours to be clear on standards: I support the standards regime and I look forward to working with Plaid Cymru on the basis of our co-operation agreement in this area. Like the commissioner, I am pleased that we now have enhanced rights to use the Welsh language with public bodies, and I also want to know what exactly the impact of standards has been on the day-to-day use of our language.
If it's not entirely clear up to this point, I'm determined to consider everything I do as Minister for the Welsh language, through whichever channel, through the prism of the use of the Welsh language. So, I've asked the commissioner to undertake a piece of work that considers this. I've done this because I'm eager to understand how the standards already in place assist Welsh speakers to make more use of the Welsh language and understand the barriers preventing people from using Welsh language services. In his five-year report, the commissioner himself recognises that the number choosing to use Welsh language services doesn't correspond to the number able to speak Welsh, so we need to look into that.
We must also understand more about the barriers that organisations face as they try to provide Welsh language services and to understand who is best placed to help them and what that help looks like. The conclusions of that work will enhance the influence of standards to be prepared for the future, with the intention that they increase the amount of Welsh we use on a daily basis.
The commissioner also shares our concerns about the impacts of COVID on the Welsh language. Throughout the pandemic, we've been working across Government and beyond in order to respond to a situation that was changing very quickly. We've published a substantial response to the audit we carried out on the impact of COVID 19 on Welsh-speaking community organisations, and we've already started to take action. Also, there have some successes during this difficult period. We've seen interest like never before in learning the Welsh language, for example, with a number of new virtual courses being undertaken.
My priorities for the Welsh language are clear. I want to see more people using whatever Welsh language skills they have on a daily basis, in their homes, in their communities and in the workplace. We need to learn lessons from what works and what doesn't, and we need to be brave enough to change our approach if it doesn't work. We need to prioritise, and that could mean stopping doing certain things in order to do things that are more far-reaching in their impact, and we must all, as a Government, as a commissioner and as partners, realise that the world has changed and, because of these changes, it's clear that we also need to change the way we work and to evolve.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I welcome today's debate on the two reports from the Welsh Language Commissioner, and I'd like to declare an interest. This is the first opportunity that I have had to comment on the work of the commissioner, and I would like to pay tribute to the hard work that both he and his team have put into fulfilling their roles, not only over the past 18 months, but before that. As I and many of us in this Chamber have said, as have you, Minister, the Welsh language belongs to everyone, from all walks of life. The work that the Welsh Language Commissioner undertakes is there to help not only promote the use of the Welsh language, but to safeguard it and expand it for future generations.
Looking at the five-year report, I note the commissioner’s concern that
'Although the ambition to reach a million Welsh speakers was warmly welcomed at the time of its publication in 2017, there is some doubt as to whether the efforts to date are sufficient to achieve this.'
Bearing in mind that you've only been Minister for the Welsh language since May, I have a great deal of interest in hearing whether we are still on the right path to meet this target by 2050 and what actions you have taken to ensure that we do reach this target.
The report highlights that there is a perception amongst Welsh speakers that Welsh language services are improving to a level where they are happy to conduct their business with public organisations in the Welsh language. But, I share the commissioner's concern regarding the lack of reliable data to measure how much the Welsh language is being used when dealing with public organisations, and it is problematic that there is no requirement for the organisations that are governed by the Welsh language standards to monitor use of the language. What are your plans, Minister, to address these calls?
The report touches on the need for businesses and charities to promote the fact that they offer a Welsh language option. In not promoting this, many Welsh speakers are not going to enquire about the service's availability, and they won't then conduct their business in Welsh. Minister, I'd like to hear more about what role your Government can play in helping to demonstrate that services can be provided bilingually.
During this debate last year, Suzy Davies drew attention to the decline in demand for A-level Welsh, which could impact on plans to recruit and train more teachers with Welsh language skills. The challenge with regard to recruitment of teachers—particularly at secondary level—is a matter that I have raised with you before in the Siambr. I'd like to hear what progress has been made in this area.
Finally, Minister, may I ask about future schemes following on from the Arfor scheme which ran between 2016 and 2020 and allocated £2 million across four predominantly Welsh-speaking counties to create more and better jobs to support the language's growth? The commissioner states that there is currently little evidence of the success of this project, and a one-off injection of funding without a very specific purpose may not be sufficient to create an evidence base for the link between work and language. How is the Welsh Government planning to address this criticism, and what changes can be made to future schemes to ensure that they more fully deliver on their aims?
Minister, the reports from the commissioner are supportive, but they do set out a challenge for your Government to demonstrate that it has ideas to help it fulfil its commitments and reach its goals. I would be happy to support you in your efforts to encourage more people to take up and use the Welsh language, but I await responses to some of the commissioner's concerns that I have highlighted today to ensure that the future of the Welsh language is safeguarded for generations to come. Thank you.

Cefin Campbell MS: I'm very pleased to be able to contribute to this debate today, but, before moving on, I do want to give heartfelt thanks to the commissioner for his work and his unstinting commitment to the Welsh language.
The Minister has already mentioned the benefits of bilingualism, and I, too, am very proud to have two languages, because two languages means twice as much choice, of course, and I want to encourage everyone in Wales—children, parents, adults—who wishes to learn the language to take advantage of the opportunity to be bilingual.
Bilingualism, of course, has a number of clear benefits—socially, economically, cognitively, and so on and so forth—and the use of language, or language use, is something that's very complex, and I've referred already to the confidence that one gains from using the language regularly. Now, a lack of confidence, of course, can sometimes be reflected in the choice to engage with public bodies through the medium of English. A lack of confidence very often goes back to a lack of Welsh language skills, so we need to look at it as a cycle: a lack of skills, lack of confidence, lack of use. So, rather than being critical of that engagement, we have to consider what public bodies are doing to make it easier for people to engage through the medium of Welsh, and I welcome the research that is to be done on that, because that bilingual service needsto be there as a default, and there should be no hindrance to people taking advantage of those opportunities. What's excellent in this Chamber is that we have Welsh learners who are also taking the opportunities to use the language, and that is a wonderful thing.
The commissioner's report notes a number of challenges that have faced the Welsh language over recent years, from Brexit and the pandemic to the cancellation of those social events that have been so important in bringing people together to use the Welsh language in all parts of Wales. There's also the issue of school closures and the issue of second homes that we've already considered this afternoon, and the shortage of mental health services through the medium of Welsh.
But I want to highlight one issue that is of great concern to me. This report is a five-year report, and it notes that one of the core objectives of the Welsh-medium education strategy is to increase capacity and skills within the Welsh-medium workforce. Now, unfortunately, we have seen a decline in this area over recent years. This data causes particular concern. There has been a striking fall over the past five years in the number of newly qualified teachers who are able to speak Welsh or to work through the medium of Welsh. There's been a reduction of 23 per cent in the numbers able to speak Welsh and 27 per cent in those who can work through the medium of Welsh. Now, this is far higher than the 8 per cent reduction in the total number of newly qualified teachers, and this is a cause of great concern, and it's clear that young Welsh speakers are following other careers outwith the education sector, unfortunately. So, I would like to ask you what exactly your plans are to tackle this in order to ensure an adequate workforce to deliver the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy.
And if I may briefly turn to Welsh language standards before I conclude, I would like to ask you what the barriers are to implementing further standards in those sectors where standards haven't been imposed to date, such as public transport, regulators in the health sector, and a number of other public bodies, specifically water companies and housing associations. So, how do we draw them into the standards regime?
I want to conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, with this: Sam referred to the fact that the commissioner had quoted some concerns and some doubt as to whether efforts to date are sufficient in delivering the objectives of the 2050 strategy. Do you agree with the commissioner's assessment of the position of the Welsh language? Thank you.

Gareth Davies AS: I would like to thank the Welsh Language Commissioner and his staff for their ongoing work. For those dependent on the care sector, speaking Welsh is not a matter of choice, it's a necessity. I'm currently dealing with a constituent whose mother, suffering from dementia, has lost the ability to speak in English. She recently suffered a fall and was forced to wait nearly five hours for help, a bad situation in and of itself, but one made so much worse because she was unable to communicate with ambulance staff. Hours spent in pain, frightened and totally isolated, all because staff don't speak your language. The ability to communicate is something we all take for granted. How terrifying must it be to be unable to make yourself understood at the time of your greatest need? Sadly, it's not just my constituent who was faced with this experience. Regrettably, the lack of Welsh-speaking staff in health and care results in this being all too common. The commissioner highlights that progress is being made to improve the number of Welsh speakers entering healthcare through schemes such as Tomorrow's Doctors. Tomorrow's Doctors, a joint venture between Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and the medical schools at Cardiff and Swansea, has, according to the commissioner's report, seen record numbers of Welsh-speaking students begin their medical training. However, it's one thing to train the Welsh-speaking doctors of tomorrow; it's quite another to convince them to stay and practise in Wales.
And while we are making progress, albeit slowly, in recruiting Welsh-speaking medics, we have an even bigger problem in social care. In social care, fewer than 13 per cent of staff across Wales are Welsh speakers. We are struggling to recruit sufficient staff to meet the care needs of today's Wales, let alone tomorrow's. In order to meet the challenges, there is a clamour to recruit staff from overseas. While this short-termism may alleviate the recruitment crisis, it will also reduce the number of Welsh-speaking care staff. We know that large numbers of social care staff are approaching retirement age in the coming decade. If we are not recruiting Welsh-speaking, Welsh-domiciled staff to replace them, then we are compounding the problem. People like my constituents are relying upon us to ensure that the staff looking after them can communicate well with them, and an inability to speak Welsh is a barrier to care, one that we must overcome urgently.
I thank the Welsh Language Commissioner for his ongoing work to improve the situation, but progress is far too slow. Not only must the Welsh Government take steps to make social care an attractive career with more than adequate pay and conditions, they must also incentivise Welsh speakers to take up a caring profession, as well as making it easier for existing staff to acquire Welsh language skills. Our constituents need us to act. How many more people suffering from dementia will be left isolated and alone, confused and afraid, all because staff cannot communicate with them in their mother tongue? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on the Minister to reply to the debate.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and may I thank everyone who's contributed to today's debate? And it's clear in hearing the enthusiastic words from all parts of the Siambr that we all have opportunities here in the Siambr to collaborate beyond the collaboration agreement that we have as a Government with Plaid Cymru, but with all parts of the Siambr to ensure the prosperity of the Welsh language, and to ensure that we do everything that we can as a Government, and also the other bodies that we work with as partners, to ensure that we do our very best to reach the target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, and, of course, that other important aim of doubling the use of the Welsh language over the same period. And I'm sure that Members will have heard the emphasis that I placed in my opening speech on the use of the Welsh language as a policy lens for me as Minister for the Welsh language.
Sam Kurtz and Cefin Campbell raised the important question: 'Are you sure that you are doing everything that needs to be done at the moment? Are you still making enough progress towards a million Welsh speakers and that important aim in terms of Welsh Government policy?' Well, the first opportunity for us to evaluate that in terms of data will arise next year with the census, and we'll all need to look at the important results of that. Several surveys in the meantime have shown progress, but it's on the basis of those numbers that we expect to be evaluated. So, there'll be an opportunity for all of us to look jointly at this on the progress next year, and there'll be an opportunity at that point to look again at the work programme that I announced during the summer. And that programme describes the steps that we intend to take as a Government, after I came into the role in May, over the next five years, to ensure that we are on track to reach that target of a million Welsh speakers.
In terms of whether that work programme is sufficient, there is no analysis in the commissioner's report of the work programme itself. I would welcome and appreciate an assessment of that contribution. Many of the points that the commissioner raises in the report are answered in that work programme, so I would welcome a further analysis of what we have already announced during the summer term.
In terms of the wider points that Sam Kurtz made in terms of whether we're doing everything we can, I just want to emphasise that the focus on the use of the language is a very important one, I think, because it drives every other interventionthat we can make as a Government, in terms of funding, in terms of collaborating with partners. Everything that we do, in terms of regulation, encouragement and promotion is an important part of the entire picture, but we need to ensure that that leads to greater daily use in our communities, in our workplaces, and within our families. I think that that focus is a very important one over the coming period, to ensure that we do make progress.
Sam Kurtz mentioned a perception amongst the public that the standards and other regulations are increasing access to Welsh language services, and that of course is to be welcomed. The opportunity now is to move beyond that perception to being able to have a more robust conclusion based on data and analysis of that. There are no new data in the report that we're discussing today, and I would like to understand better the numbers of people who are using services. The point that Cefin Campbell made is very important in that regard, namely the confidence and ability to do that, but we need to have a better understanding than we currently have of the numbers of people who are using these services. The report itself says, of course, that that is fewer than the number of people who can speak Welsh, and I am pleased that we were able to collaborate with the commissioner to understand that picture more clearly, and the important point that Cefin Campbell made in his contribution in terms of understanding the barriers that mean that people don't request those services through the medium of Welsh, or that organisations can't provide them in the way that we would want. That understanding of the barriers is crucial, I believe, to the process of ensuring that the standards do what we want them to do.
Cefin Campbell asked a specific point on the barriers in terms of the process of setting standards. I think that was the thrust of the question. The process of establishing and imposing the standards, as it has evolved, hasn't tended towards a simple process. That is, there are steps that the commissioner has to take, further steps that we need to take as a Government, and the bodies that expect to be subject to these standards are then in a growing process and a continuous process of contribution and consultation. So, I don't think that's the best way of doing this. We've had a discussion and we continue to have discussions with the commissioner—a constructive discussion—about how we can ensure that that process is simpler, so that we can set standards that do their job more simply and easier in future, and, of course, that's part of the agreement that the Welsh Government has with Plaid Cymru, as well as the questions that Cefin Campbell asked with regard to standards for transport, water companies, health regulators and housing associations. I look forward to discussing that further with him.
But may I thank the commissioner for his work? May I thank all of the organisations and campaigners who make such an important contribution to the prosperity of the Welsh language and that help us towards our shared aim of a million Welsh speakers by 2050 and doubling the use of the language every day?

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

11. Debate: President of the Welsh Tribunals Annual Report

The next item is a debate on the president of the Welsh Tribunals annual report. I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution to move the motion.

Motion NDM7834 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the annual report of the President of Welsh Tribunals on the operation of the Welsh Tribunals over the 2020-2021 financial year.

Motion moved.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very pleased to open this debate, the debate on the president of the Welsh Tribunals annual report for 2020 to 2021. This is the third annual report by Sir Wyn Williams during his period as president. Before I discuss the report further, I'm sure that Members will want to join me in thanking Sir Wyn, thanking him for his commitment and dedication at all times in his role as president of the Welsh Tribunals.
Sir Wyn is the first to undertake this role that was created by the Wales Act 2017. Sir Wyn has played a key role in developing the system for Welsh Tribunals in these early days. We also remember his important contribution to strengthening the independence of the judiciary and judicial leadership. He has been vitally important as well in drawing up the agenda for the reform of Welsh Tribunals. I will have more comments to make on this in a few moments.

Mick Antoniw AC: The past year has seen the Welsh Tribunals continue to respond to the very significant challenges posed by the coronavirus pandemic. The president gave evidence to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee on 1 November and advised that all cases brought forward in 2020-21 had been dealt with by the Welsh Tribunals. And it is to the credit of the president, judicial leads, tribunal members and the Welsh Tribunals unit that the Welsh Tribunals have been able to operate remotely over the period and do so successfully in the face of difficult ongoing circumstances. This performance is particularly notable when one looks at the delays in the justice system that have been seen across England and Wales in the same period. And it is important in terms of access to justice that the Welsh Tribunals have continued to operate effectively, as the consequences for those who would have recourse to them, particularly users of the mental health review tribunal, could have been extremely serious had they not.
Of course, Sir Wyn also served on the Commission on Justice in Wales and he contributed to its comprehensive set of recommendations on the future of justice in Wales. Latterly, as president of Welsh Tribunals, he has worked with the Law Commission to inform its review of the law governing the operation of the devolved tribunals in Wales. And one of the recommendations made by the Commission on Justice in Wales, and one I anticipate is likely the Law Commission will make, concerns the structural independence of the Welsh Tribunals unit. Not only is this an issue that has been a recurring theme in each of the president's annual reports, it is one that the president reiterated in his recent appearance before the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. To use the words of the president from his committee appearance,
'the Welsh Tribunals unit should be, and be seen to be, independent of Welsh Government',
so as to promote the fundamental principle of the independence of the judiciary. This is not a position from which I would demur.
And as our system of Welsh tribunals under the Wales Act 2017 has developed, so has the Welsh Tribunals unit's role in administering them. The unit is part of the Welsh Government and, as a Government, we highly value and respect the work of the Welsh Tribunals judiciary. We recognise their integrity, their commitment to public service and the important role they play in the exercise of public responsibilities in Wales. And I've no doubt that this Government and this Senedd recognise and understand the importance of the principle of judicial independence. I'm confident in saying that this principle guides the way in which judicial institutions are and will continue to be supported in Wales.
I also have no doubt that the Law Commission's recommendations will identify the structural reforms required to modernise our tribunal system. A remodelling of the administration of justice will be a necessary part of our journey towards building a justice infrastructure for Wales that is capable of managing the ever greater divergence of law from England.
And finally, I'd like to turn to the president's future priorities, and two in particular: first, evaluating how the Welsh Tribunals should operate post pandemic in terms of the balance between remote and face-to-face hearings to best serve access to justice; and secondly, responding to and assisting with the implementation of recommendations made by the Law Commission. We can all be very pleased that Sir Wyn will bring his experience and leadership to bear on taking forward these important matters. Deputy Presiding Officer, in closing, I hope Members will join me in thanking the president of Welsh Tribunals for his annual report for the last financial year. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Our committee welcomes today’s debate and the Welsh Government’s commitment to schedule debates on future annual reports by the president of Welsh Tribunals. We look forward to seeing this debate become a routine part of Senedd business.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I only have a few short comments today, but I would join indeed the Minister and Counsel General in his comments on the record on Sir Wyn, and also the future work of Sir Wyn as well. I think we are blessed in having people such as him, of his calibre, to actually guide some of this work in Wales.
On 1 November, as the Minister has said, the president of Welsh Tribunals, Sir Wyn, attended our committee meeting to discuss his annual report, and this is a precedent that was set by our predecessor committee. We thank the Chair and our predecessor committee members for going in that direction. It's one that we intend to continue throughout this Senedd term. I think it's a mark of the maturing respect and the strength of this democratic institution as well that we do this.
During the meeting, we discussed Sir Wyn’s key priorities for the rest of his term in office, in respect of access to justice and the Law Commission’s devolved tribunals in Wales project, and other matters as well, some of which the Minister has touched on. I don't intend to go into those in depth today, but he's laid out some of the important matters that actually have an effect on bread-and-butter issues for citizens in Wales. We were very grateful to Sir Wyn for his frank and extensive answers. We expect no less, I have to say, from Sir Wyn; it's the way he deals with this—very honest, very straightforward. This will help us inform our forward work programme as well. I think he pointed us in the direction of areas to look at. So, we look forward to continuing this dialogue with Sir Wyn following the publication of the upcoming report by the Law Commission too.
As part of our discussion with Sir Wyn, we gave some consideration to the work of the individual Welsh tribunals. As part of our regular monitoring work, we've written now to the relevant Senedd committees to draw their attention to the annual reports published by Welsh tribunals that fall within their remits. This, again, is part of the strengthening of our scrutiny and our due diligence here within this institution. So, we look forward to continuing this practice in our committee throughout the sixth Senedd.
And finally, in echoing the comments of the Minister and Counsel General,Sir Wyn’s term in office is currently set to end in March 2022, so we would like as a committee, and I would like personally, just to take this opportunity to put my thanks on the record to Sir Wyn for his work as president of Welsh Tribunals. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Mark Isherwood AC: As the president of Welsh Tribunals states, a substantial part of his report focuses upon how the Welsh tribunals have dealt with the disruption brought about by coronavirus. As the report states, tribunal members and the staff of the Welsh Tribunals unit deserve a great deal of credit for their determination to ensure that the work of the Welsh tribunals has run as smoothly as possible. The report refers to the Law Commission project on Welsh tribunals and to the provisional recommendation in the commission's consultation paper that the Welsh Tribunals unit should become a non-ministerial department. As the report states, the reasoning for supporting this recommendation is compelling and such a development would be of substantial benefit.
Speaking here in September, I asked the Counsel General for his response to this and other proposals in the consultation paper, including to standardise the processes for appointing and dismissing members of the tribunals, to standardise procedural rules across the tribunals, to replace the existing separate tribunals with a single unified first-tier tribunal, and to bring the Valuation Tribunal for Wales and school exclusion appeals panels within the unified new first-tier tribunal. In his response, the Counsel General told me that he looked forward to receiving the commission's recommendations. It would be helpful if he could now clarify his position, if these recommendations are maintained in the Law Commission's final report.
I welcome the president of Welsh Tribunals' membership of various UK bodies, which ensures, he says, that he is well placed to keep abreast of all important developments in the tribunals that exist in all four countries of the UK. Referring to the Commission on Justice in Wales, this report states that the recommendation that courts and tribunals that determine disputes in both civil and administrative law should be under one unified system in Wales can be achieved only if there is substantial devolution of the justice function to Wales. However, devolution of justice powers would risk exacerbating the jagged edge of how devolved and non-devolved powers intersect and could cost up to £100 million a year. Further, as the Law Society states, a jurisdictional solution to accommodate Welsh law needs to be developed without creating barriers for the operation of justice or the ability of practitioners to work across Wales and England
Finally, the report refers to the Special Educational Needs Tribunal for Wales, SENTW, referring to the clear need to ensure that the education of vulnerable children is not compromised, and to the transition from SENTW to the new education tribunal. In this context, it is of extreme concern to the families I have represented that neither SENTW nor its successor body can take any further enforcement action when the relevant bodies fail to carry out their orders.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I'd like to echo the tributes to Sir Wyn Williams, the members of the tribunals, and the Welsh Tribunals unit for all of the excellent work that they have done over this extremely challenging year with the pandemic. I'm very pleased, given the very sensible extension to Sir Wyn's term of office into March of next year, that this won't be his final annual report. We have been extremely fortunate to have someone of his quality and nature to the be the first president of Welsh Tribunals. Sir Wyn, in his annual report, and this isn't the first time he's done this, has mentioned the importance of succession planning. Judicial appointments take months rather than weeks, Minister, as you well know. So, has the Welsh Government started to discuss with the Lord Chief Justice in order to plan for Sir Wyn's succession?

Rhys ab Owen AS: Moving on to the tribunal structure, if the Welsh Government and the Senedd are serious about getting justice devolved here, we need to ensure that what we have already is being run well. The Commission on Justice in Wales in October 2019 made many recommendations about the Welsh tribunals, and I look forward to seeing the full report of the Law Commission next month. I welcomed its consultation report, and I welcome the creation of a first-tier tribunal and upper tribunal, and the consistency with regard to procedural rules, appointment and dismissal. Sir Wyn Williams has already indicated that the workload of the president of Welsh Tribunals and the Welsh Tribunals unit will increase dramatically if the Law Commission's recommendations are implemented. What are the Government's plans with regard to implementation?
It is disappointing that previous Welsh legislation has not used the Welsh tribunals. This has caused issues between the Ministry of Justice and the Welsh Government with regard to funding, and we've also lost a great opportunity to enlarge the workload of the Welsh tribunals. Do you agree with me, and also the Commission on Justice in Wales report, that with all future Welsh legislation, if practical, the dispute resolution should use the Welsh tribunals rather than the courts of England and Wales?
On tribunal performance, we've all indicated how well the tribunals have performed during these very difficult times. However, Sir Wyn Williams does mention in his report some concerns about the drop of cases with regard to the agricultural land tribunal and the Special Educational Needs Tribunal for Wales. The reasons prove elusive, but it seems that COVID was the main reason. But he in his report mentioned that research into the drop of the figures would be welcomed. Will the Government support this request and look into why the numbers have dropped?
I'd like to move to an area that I know is very close to your heart, Counsel General—that is access to justice. In tribunals, as in most places, we will not be returning to how things were before COVID. In the last report, and reiterated again in this report, Sir Wyn Williams mentions the advantages of remote hearings. Indeed, he says that remote hearings by video-conferencing has proved a great success. This has also led to an unprecedented underspend in the budget of Welsh Tribunals—over £0.5 million. Now, I appreciate that remote hearings don't work for everyone, but with such clear testimony from Sir Wyn Williams that they have worked on the whole, and with such underspend in the budget, what are the Government's plans to continue remote hearings in the future, where appropriate?
You've mentioned independence, and the reason I mention it again is because I think it's so important to stress this point.

Rhys ab Owen AS: In every annual report, as you've mentioned, Sir Wyn Williams has emphasised the importance of the independence of the Welsh Tribunals unit. And not for one second do I question that independence, but, as you are aware, it is crucial that justice is seen to be done. I'm sure you would agree, but just for the record, would you agree that we need structural independence for this unit within Welsh Government, and what are your plans to ensure this?
And to conclude, Deputy Llywydd, through the Welsh tribunals, we have an opportunity to build a justice system that is fair and accessible in Wales. For example, you don't have to pay any hearing fee in Welsh tribunals. However, in order to have a fair system, we need sufficient resources from the Government and from the Senedd for tribunals. The president of tribunals, and its members, and the staff, and everyone who uses the service, need the support that they need. And that, Counsel General, is how we can persuade the people of Wales, and prove to the people of Wales, that we can do justice better here in Wales than is done in Westminster. Thank you.

I call on the Counsel General to reply to the debate.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank all the speakers who've contributed to this debate at the end of this long day? Can I also just reiterate the comments of support and recognition of the work of Sir Wyn Williams? I suspect he may well be listening in, so I hope he doesn't think that some of these comments are more in light of an obituary, because I can assure you that he is alive and well—it just sometimes sounds like that; I'm sure he's not going anywhere for quite some time.
Can I also say that one of the things that he—? I obviously have met with him to discuss his report, and again with the First Minister, and again with the Lord Chief Justice, on issues around the tribunals and broader legal issues. The issue of independence goes really to the heart of one of the points that he wanted to emphasise. So, on his behalf, that very much was contained I think in the statement I made, but also I think it's a point that you've made, and others have made, and we recognise this. Because the transition of the tribunals into what I hope will be a new, modern tribunal service in due course, has to be at the cornerstone of it.
A number of comments were made about the format for the tribunals in a number of the issues that were raised. Can I just say that we're obviously waiting the final report of the Law Commission on tribunals? We very much look forward to the recommendations, and indeed, I hope, to the implementation of those recommendations. Because what we are doing is really putting together now what has emerged on an ad hoc basis. There are very important aspects of administrative law that are very important to people's lives in many particular areas, and it's about putting that into what I hope will become a first-tier tribunal service, and a Welsh appeals service, with a president of tribunals who will have a very specific role.
Can I say, obviously, to the Member, that we probably disagree in terms of the issues on the devolution of justice? Because I agree with very much what Lord Thomas said to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee the other day that it's not a question of 'if', it's a question of 'when'. Because it is about how we can actually do things better, rather than 'Who owns this?' or 'Who owns that?', and I think those arguments are becoming clearer and clearer as time goes on.
The point was made very strongly in the report, and again by Sir Wyn, in terms of the impact of COVID, but the efforts that were made to ensure that those cases were still dealt with—. And it's also very clear as well that there were advantages to moving forward to the greater use of online hearings and so on. And I think the access to justice point is really about the fact that these tribunals will, I think, become increasingly inquisitorial, rather than adversarial, and that is there to actually seek the right outcome, rather than who has the best representation on a particular day. And I think that is a way in which this part of our Welsh justice system can actually do things very differently. So, I think there will be those changes, and I think we have to consider all of those within the context of the recommendations from the Law Commission, and again, the fact that almost certainly, as a consequence of that, we will need a tribunal Wales Bill, in order to reform the structures and so on. I don't want to jump the gun on it, because obviously we have to wait for the commission report.
Our programme for government commitment is to pursue the case for the devolution of justice and policing to Wales, and the Cabinet sub-committee on justice, which I chair, has been reconvened to take that forward. As Members will be aware, the clear case for change was made out by the Commission on Justice in Wales. We are continuing to pursue the case for change within the UK Government; continuing to work with our stakeholders to explore how best to achieve change; and continuing to progress our own programme of work. And I'm pleased that the new Law Council for Wales has now been constituted, and has held its own first inaugural meeting.
In October, together with the First Minister, as I've said, I met with the president of the tribunals to discuss his report and future priorities. I've also met with the lord chief justices, with justices of the Supreme Court, and with other senior judges serving in Wales. And I think Members can take heart at the level of engagement from our most senior judges with the particular needs of Wales—. And I'm particularly pleased to see so much positive judicial engagement with the new law council. More recently, as I said, I met with Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd to discuss the future of justice in Wales. And, whilst the pandemic has slowed the pace of change, the arguments made out by the commission on justice for constitutional change and devolution of justice have, I think, if anything, been strengthened by the exceptional circumstances that we've found ourselves in.
Finally, as I said, I anticipate receiving the Law Commission's report on the devolved tribunal by the end of the year. It will signpost our journey towards a modern tribunal system for Wales, and I look forward to considering the commission's recommendations for a distinct Welsh policy in this important area. Dirprwy Lywydd, in drawing to a conclusion, I'd again like to thank the president for his third annual report, and for his ongoing leadership of Welsh Tribunals. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

12. Voting Time

We've reached voting time now. But, first of all, and in accordance with Standing Order 12.18, I will suspend the meeting before proceeding to votingtime.

Plenary was suspended at 18:48.

The Senedd reconvened at 18:55, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.

We've now reached voting time and therefore we now move on to our votes. The first vote is on item 7 on today's agenda: the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 20) Regulations 2021. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. In favour, 37, no abstentions, 13 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 7. The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 20) Regulations 2021: For: 37, Against: 13, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next item is item 8: the legislative consent motion on the Rating (Coronavirus) and Directors Disqualifications (Dissolved Companies) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Thank you. Close the vote. In favour, 39, no abstentions, 11 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 8. Legislative Consent Motion on the Rating (Coronavirus) and Directors Disqualifications (Dissolved Companies) Bill: For: 39, Against: 11, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next item is item 11: the debate on the president of the Welsh Tribunals annual report—no, I've done that one. Sorry. My apologies—item 9: the legislative consent motion on the Armed Forces Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Hannah Blythyn. Open the vote. Thank you. Close the vote. In favour, 39, no abstentions, 11 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 9. Legislative Consent Motion on the Armed Forces Bill: For: 39, Against: 11, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

And that concludes the voting for this evening, and it concludes the business for the day. Everyone have a safe journey home.

The meeting ended at 18:58.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Cefin Campbell: What support does the Welsh Government give to companies in Pembrokeshire to help them reduce their carbon emissions?

Mark Drakeford: Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn cynnig ystod eang o gymorth i fusnesau er mwyn eu helpu i leihau eu heffaith ar yr amgylchedd. Mae hyn yn cynnwys cynghorwyr effeithlonrwydd adnoddau Busnes Cymru sydd wedi cefnogi 167 o fusnesau yn sir Benfro ers 2016 i wella eu strategaethau cynaliadwyedd amgylcheddol.

Hefin David: Will the First Minister provide an update on the delivery of the education reform commitments contained in the Programme for Government?

Mark Drakeford: Our long-term programme of education reform remains ambitious but achievable as we move into a key implementation phase for the Curriculum for Wales and a new system of additional learning needs support to improve the lives of all children and young people in Wales.

Carolyn Thomas: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to tackle the nature emergency in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Amongst the actions being taken by the Welsh Government are creating resilient ecological networks to safeguard species and habitats, restoring peatland, creating a national forest and supporting the Member’s work championing biodiversity in roadside verges.

Mark Isherwood: How is the Welsh Government supporting mental health services in North Wales?

Mark Drakeford: We support mental health services in north Wales through the targeted intervention framework, and through a substantial package of strategic support. This includes £12 million a year up to 2023-24 to support implementation of the health board’s mental health strategy, and to build capacity and capability in the organisation.